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Question Why is attack cooldown disabled?

Discussion in 'Annihilation' started by ThatGuyFTP, Jul 8, 2019.

Question - Why is attack cooldown disabled?
  1. ThatGuyFTP Silver

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    12,072xp
    There's a reason that the combat system was updated to the new version, combat in the 1.9 combat update is in every single way superior and more skill based.
    Additionally, shields are useless without the attack cooldown, and its a matter of who has the better gear and enchantments, removing any amount of skill from the game.
    The combat update is by far superior to click spamming on people while jumping around like a headless chicken for crits.
    There is no upside to a combat system with the depth of "Click on this person as fast as you can while jumping".

    Like I stated previously, shields are completely useless without attack cooldown, it doesn't matter if you block an attack because you'll be hit again the second you lower your shield for a full strength hit, and you didn't get a hit in.
    In all intents and purposes, blocking is a disadvantage, because it basically allows the enemy a free weakened hit in on you.
    I just simply don't understand the reasoning behind removing a more skill based in-depth combat system.

  2. double_axle Platinum

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    Jumping has never been the standard for vanilla PVP, it's always been fishingrod into starting a combo, jumping just opens you up to getting hit because you can hit further away the higher up your target is, and your reach is shorter when you are above someone, new PVP is slow, generic, there's no real finesse to it, either you still spamclick trying to break their armor, or wait for the bar to fill while they spamclick you.
  3. Ivandagiant Silver

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    12,186xp
    1.9 update was very controversial and Mojang is actually reworking combat AGAIN in 1.14/1.15 because they recognized that the new combat is very flawed. If we did have an attack delay, nobody would die. Regen would be too powerful. Blocking still has its uses, like when you are immobilized or for tanking an arrow.

    Attack delay is a snorefest for PvP. I do enjoy it for PvE, but it is way too slow for PvP and even Mojang has stated this too.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Minecraft/...tom_java_edition_snapshot_to_test_new_combat/

    "
    Main issues in Java Edition,
    • Too slow for PvP - not exciting enough
    • Damage per second is too low to beat regenerating items
    • Too hard to understand for new players"
  4. ThatGuyFTP Silver

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    12,072xp
    No finesse to timed blocking and attacking? Compared to *clickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclickclick*?
    Also, for a sword, it takes 0.6 seconds for an attack to reach full strength, if they're spam clicking you, they're doing 20% damage per hit... You're outdamaging their DPS just by timing your attacks every 0.6 seconds.

    Ah, okay. Your explanation was a lot better than Double_axle's
    Although I don't agree on the snorefest, I definitely understand the not enough DPS to deal with regen
  5. FEDPOL1 Regular Member

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    383,551xp
    That doesn't work since armour doesn't lose durability when you are attacked while in the 0.5 second invulnerability period. You would be doing 2 durability damage per second while spamming; and since durability damage scales with attack damage in 1.9, timing is preferrable.
    And here we are in anni where the DPS is even lower. Granted anni doesn't have some of the regenerating items 1.9 has.

    There is a mechanic in 1.9 where the more damage your attack does, the more armour it ignores. So your iron sword which does 6 damage against a naked opponent would deal 3.12 damage through iron armour as opposed to 2.4. Start critting and the damage goes way up; an iron axe crit which deals 13.5 damage against a naked opponent would deal 9.04 damage through iron armour instead of 5.4.
    Divide all figures by 2 to get damage through diamond armour.

    Which leads us to.....
    I'd argue 1.9 is heavier on the crits because of the mechanic mentioned above. However due to a shorter percieved range from jumping, crits can't be spammed carelessly. I often see people toe the 3-block hitrange line while critting.

    1.9 is only slow if you want it to be slow. The sword swing timer is only a little longer than the invulnerability timer; it's short enough to chain hits together and get a combo. The axe timers are significantly longer ranging from 1.0 to 1.25 seconds, but you can just use a sword. And anyways, while the timer is running you are positioning yourself for the next hit.
    ThatGuyFTP likes this.
  6. Tobi472 Platinum

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    597,494xp
    Why we dont have 1.9 combat? Because some ppl would like to stay on the ground and dont enjoy spamming a d buttons that much. Not even talking about regen 3 with an attack cooldown :lmao:
  7. Ivandagiant Silver

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    12,186xp
    I literally quoted jeb for that. Jeb literally said the DPS in 1.9 is too slow to combat regenerating items.

    Also, wouldn't axes be superior to swords? Sure, they attack slower, but they deal more damage and thus penetrate more armor due to the armor toughness mechanic which makes a huge difference. One second cooldown between attacks sounds like a staring contest, which, as I quoted Jeb, he also believe that it is "Too slow for PvP- not exciting enough".
  8. FEDPOL1 Regular Member

    XP:
    383,551xp
    And I disagree with him. You can still do substantial damage through the best of armour, enough to outpace your opponent's healing. Strength really helps here, the +3/+6 damage goes far.
    Only in the case of the stone axe/sword and only when the opponent has 10 or more armour points.
    Bows already have the one second pullback time. The difference between the bow pullback and the melee timer is you can move while recharging your weapon, so that's exactly what most people do.

    Using an axe also opens up new considerations for positioning, you don't want to let a sword user stay near you becuase they can get an extra hit.
    The inverse applies for using a sword, you want to stay near an axe user to get extra hits.
    ThatGuyFTP likes this.
  9. Prompted Regular Member

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    146,572xp
    You might enjoy a 1.14 SMP server, rather than shotbow.
    cokc and Gale like this.
  10. FEDPOL1 Regular Member

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    383,551xp
    Oh believe me, I am.
    1.14 SMP and 1.13 kitpvp.
  11. Gale Regular Member

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    5,272xp
    The 1.9 combat system is actually quite the opposite of what you are stating here. The 1.9 combat system removed a few extremely helpful PvP mechanics that are not even within Shotbow's current PvP system even after removing the hit delay. Some of these features are blockhitting, w tapping, and the default knockback. W tapping, for those who dont already know, is when you are you are trading hits with your enemy you quickly release your w key then re press it. This action "resets your sprint". Everytime you are sprinting at someone and hit them, your first hit will deal more knockback to them than the next ones. So everytime you w tap you deal more kb. I've done testing on both MineZ and Anni and have found that this feature is not in effect. Second one is block hitting. There is only one video that I need to show you to prove my point: https://twitter.com/FinlayPacks/status/1131553152535334912. As you can see he got a 20 hit combo just by blockhitting. Last point is something simple, the default kb.The knockback is just generally lower in all versions 1.9 and up. Again, I have tested this aswell as experienced this within my normal gameplay.

    So after saying all of that, I would like you to compare it to 1.9's mechanics. 1.9 has much slower paced pvp, thus lowering the skill gap. You dont have to practice aiming as much as you normally do, nor do you have as many things to be aware of ( time your w taps and blockhits ). With all that considered I would have to argue that 1.7/1.8 has a much greater skill gap that rewards practice and skill rather than just whoever has the best gear wins.
    Keyboard likes this.
  12. Tobi472 Platinum

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    597,494xp
    Why are ppl spreading false information. Strenght 1 in anni is +1.5 attack damage... so it is basicially trash lol
    Ivandagiant and Gale like this.
  13. ThatGuyFTP Silver

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    12,072xp
    That sounds like cheesing the glitchy mechanics rather than actual skill...
    I find slow methodical combat with blocking, parrying, high damage attacks, etc. to be skillful
    Look at Mordhau or For Honor as an example, and the difference between new players and high skill players.
    Edit: Examples:


    (YouTuber/Streamer I personally watch a lot of)
  14. Gale Regular Member

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    5,272xp
    Ok then go play those games :stuck_out_tongue:. Actual 1.9 combat only involves you swinging, stepping away, swinging, then stepping away. The game would become completely skill based and no fun. Those other games have different mechanics that allow slow swinging to be viable, not to mention it is MUCH more realistic than Minecraft. So I dont think its exactly fair to compare the two. If you think that the slower combat system is better than in my opinion you have'nt done your research or you dont like Minecraft.
    Keyboard likes this.
  15. MuffinMinister Platinum

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    65,346xp
    Literally comparing gold-sprinked apples from the top of the himalaya mountains to an average mango here.

    These games literally focus on the combat, hence having more detailed and well-thought-out combat if compared to a game that was mostly intended to be about survival and gathering resources as well as building.
    Gale and Ivandagiant like this.
  16. Prompted Regular Member

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    146,572xp
    With the "attack delay" that you love so much, I would like to see what you would do when a team is rushing your nexus. I wan't to see what your methods will be when they have full diamond prot 2-4, regen pots/gapples, etc. With the attack delay your DPS is so limited, these guys in OP gear won't ever be able to be taken down.
    Keyboard likes this.
  17. FEDPOL1 Regular Member

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    383,551xp
    W-tapping is still a feature in vanilla 1.9, don't blame 1.9 for something Shotbow did.
    Blockhitting, ok. I'll give you that one. More emphasis is placed on movement and positioning with it removed however.
    And here's a video of my own showing a combo from strafing: https://streamable.com/zhzt0. Probably could've gotten more than 5 hits if the opponent stayed alive.
    Why does that matter?
    I'd probably try to land crits with a stone axe or better to take advantage of (another mechanic not in anni) the armour penetration mechanic. Would deal 1.6 damage through prot 16 diamond armour so if you get a swarm of leathers all doing it to maximize DPS, you could very likely kill the rushers.
    Using strength II (assuming the vanilla +6 damage) would increase the damage per crit to 3.4.
  18. Gale Regular Member

    XP:
    5,272xp

    Ok, yes w tapping is still technically a thing. But the way it works is much worse than 1.7. https://streamable.com/wwbgb. While w tapping does deal a small more amount of kb, it doesnt have the same effect as it does on 1.7, as shown above. I dont have a video comparing 1.9 aswell as 1.7 but it is pretty clear that we will never see something like that as long as Shotbow stays on the current version. (Not saying Shotbow should go back to 1.7 just stating a fact). As far as blockhitting goes, blockhitting was not only used to reset your sprint, but also as a movement change. As you know blocking your sword while sprinting slowed you down significantly. Doing this in rapid bursts changes your movement patterns and can make it harder for someone to aim on you.

    Secondly the clip you showcased was not the best of examples. Your opponent only swung his sword once then just stood there and took the blows.

    "Why does that matter?" Low kb means its harder to combo your opponent and most of your fights will just be exchanging hits. Although one could argue that just because its harder means its more skillful. However that is not true, nobody can w tap and block hit perfectly every single time. Low kb leaves the outcome of the battle more to chance than skill. Higher kb means you are able to easily perform the "1.7 mechanics" (block hitting, w tapping) and the fight becomes who can use those mechanics the best.
    Keyboard and Ivandagiant like this.
  19. Ivandagiant Silver

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    12,186xp
  20. FEDPOL1 Regular Member

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    383,551xp
    And in your first video, the opponent stood there swinging at air. In 1.9, you only swing if you think you can land a hit to avoid wasting a full charge. I was too far most of the time, so they did not swing.
    They also swung twice, not that it matters much.
    People can get pretty good at gaging distance. You just need to do it better than your opponent to get a chance to initiate a combo. W-tapping is also easier when you only have to do it once every half-second. Strafing also helps keep a combo going, I don't really see that in your videos.
    You know what else leaves the outcome of the battle more to chance than skill? Spam-clicking. In earlier versions, you don't have to judge distances as much to initiate a fight, just start swinging before you get in range.

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