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Discussion in 'MineZ' started by OneZedArmy, Nov 12, 2019.
That would be great, it will be nice to have a one place to see all minez rules
Thanks. You should also consider unbanning the streamsnipers shown in OneZedArmy's embedded video, as in the real world, you won't be arrested for committing a crime that wasn't in written law at the time. It may be rude and uncalled for, but it isn't bannable. (yet)
We haven't banned anyone for stream sniping.
Then for what reason were they banned?
This question has puzzled everyone. If, by providing no reason, you don't tell anyone, the greatest assumption is the stream snipe.
As long as Shotbow has existed, we do not believe in public shaming, so we don't release the ban reasons for other players. However, if a player appeals, they are provided a reason if it was not already given to them in their ban reason. I can say for certain that said player has received a reason as to why they were banned from an appeal. Whether or not they disclose the real reason truthfully is up to them, but they very well know what they did wrong.
He was blacklisted for "malicious intent", according to the player himself. From this, I think we can all come to a similar conclusion.
Except if you're Navarr, then you can quote a ban appeal on a public thread.
I have investigated this, and the images I provide are courtesy of Up44 via private message with his explicit permission. As seen in the original post, the video provides context for the event of Up44 being banned.
Developing upon this, Up44 appealed his ban, which was demonstrably denied in the first screenshot.
For context, the "this" message that Marine_PvP refers to here is this screenshot taken from Discord(Proof found here).
The context before and after this screenshot has not been provided by either Up44 or by Marine_PvP. Up44 is unable to provide the context for this under this quote:
A screenshot of this image can be found too:
Concluding from the above 4 examples of evidence I am led to believe several conclusions. The first, is that the rules for the games are horribly outdated with the Administrator perspectives of what the rules should be. Secondly, I am led to believe the rules and the Administrators are operating under a similar idea as an idea in Law called "Ex post facto law", where something that was previously legal is made illegal, and when someone commits an action while it is legal, they are still punished for it. What this brings to attention is that the Administrators are not operating under the rulings.
The third thing this brings to mind, and this is a very interesting thing and very very subjective thing, is that Marine_PvP said the following:
There are 2 implications from this statement. The first is that causing unnecessary drama is a bannable offence, which most clans, and many administrators have demonstratably offended this throughout the history of the server. If this was to be justified as the reasoning behind up44's banning, then this would also justify banning many members from Dawn Brigade, UTC, The Insurrection and Other such clans for their "unnecessary dramas"(The term unnecessary is important here as it's subjective and leads this very easy to shift goal posts. Even this post could be seen as an offence of it, which would leave me committing a bannable offence with it). The 2nd implication is that any action that CAN BE VIEWED as an attempt to harm the server is bannable. I do not think the 2nd implication is erroneous, but how Marine_PvP seems to say that it follows from the 2nd implication does not seem correct. It is from this that one can conclude that unnecessary drama IS harm to the server and thus BANNABLE, and thus anyone or group who does this should be BANNED for this(see my point about clans above). It leads me to suspect the reasoning for the ban is incorrect. As burden of proof is upon the claimant(see Burden of Proof or Russel's Teapot for explanation on this), the Administrators have provided a reason, and I do not think it logically follows, and if it does, it legitimises these 2 implications as effectively rules, and makes most clans and a lot of individuals already in offence of it. Whether administrators want to give Up44 a reason following the rules at his time of banning, that is up to them, and not relevant to this post.
Also notable is that Up44 is banned from the Discord, however neither Up44 nor I know the reasons for this, and as I don't use the Shotbow Discord, I will leave this up to anyone else to investigate if they wish.
Finally, the point of this message is not to demonstrate that Up44 should be banned or unbanned, or make any comment on it. The point of this post is to demonstrate that the reasoning for this particular appeal do not follow logic, and leave a lot of dangerous implications that should be known. Additionally, following my previous post, the rules have not been updated to reflect that either unnecessary drama is bannable, harm to the server(in ambiguous ways) is bannable, or that stream sniping is bannable. If Administrators could talk about the implications and conclusions made by the ban appeal rather than the reasoning behind the ban appeal, that would be greatly appreciated, otherwise you(administrator) would also be in offence of the policy outlined by Mistri in the quote at the start of this post.
I agree with up being banned, but Pi has a good point.
The main difference between up44 and other players is that up44 has been blacklisted once already, and was on a 'thin ice'. We rarely unblacklist players after they get blacklisted, and those who get unblacklisted are monitored more carefully, and get a stronger punishment for any bad things they do. His intent to cause a drama is obviously considered bad and we have decided to remove him from the network. Pi, you have a good point and I'd agree with you if a normal player got banned for this reason, but up44 was on an extreme thin ice. Normal players would never be banned for such behavior unless warned beforehand.
up was not banned for stream sniping, this isn't true
It is true. No where in the rules does it ever say that causing drama is bannable. Not in the rules page, or the updated stream sniping rules.
I do not agree with what he did, as drama is terrible for this community, but it was not bannable. You guys are inventing rules to protect a ban that was made before the act was illegal. You had no proof that he was doing it for drama until after you banned him. In addition, if causing drama is one of these secret rules, then as Mr_3141592653589 said, you should have banned many more people by now.
Explained in the first paragraph of what I posted above
I'm unaware of what the ban reason of "Blacklisted Player" is. I don't participate in the Shotbow Discord and don't know anything about whether there's exclusive rulings spoken only in there, however the Official place to see the rulings for the Shotbow network fails to make any mention of it. It also fails to mention the Alt rules and the Stream sniping rules. There are 5 pinned threads on the MineZ forums and not one of them lists rules exclusive for MineZ. I for one, don't even know where I would find the Combat Alt rulings anymore as it's not listed anywhere.
If you could expand on what "Blacklisted Player" as a reason is, and consider updating how one gets the rules?
basically they can --and will continue to-- do whatever they feel like. The rules are what they make up as they go.
I know that some gamemode specific rules such as alt or stream sniping are not listed on the rules page, and we will add them on the main rules page. Rules must be easily accessible from the main page so everyone can have a fair change to read it.
Blacklists are dealt with case by case, and it really depends on its circumstance - ban history, the seriousness of the offense, etc. Hence it's impossible to list all reasons of blacklist bans.
Players could be blacklisted for various reasons - cheating, toxicity, malicious intent, and more. The term blacklist isn't explicitly mentioned in the rules, but here are some parts saying that you may be removed from the network permanently.
We also reserve the right to remove any person from the network at any time without warning.
Software or hardware that auto-clicks, shows an entity or chest radar, allows for an x-ray view, or other such unfair advantages are not allowed and may result in your permanent removal from the network.
Blacklists are awarded based on multiple bans over multiple accounts, and only happens when we view a player holistically and see that they do not deserve to play on the network anymore. Their latest ban may not be reflective of the true damage they have caused to lead up to their being blacklisted.
I normally just shit post on the forums at this point but I'm standing up for my boy here.
You literally banned him over a joke that you guys took to heart and used that as a reason to ban him. Like, no other server would ban someone for "Didn't cause drama this time." It's a literal joke that the remains of whatever's left of this community has to argue with the staff on their vague rules that they SOMETIMES enforce. Also half your staff don't even know the rules themselves you're like the government with this COPPA bullshit on Youtube. The government made it as unclear as possible so they cause screw over whoever whenever they feel like it. My friends, you've done just that! It doesn't help also that your rules page is absolutely TERRIBLE. You have network rules and that's it listed on there and the network ones are poorly written as well. If you're going to keep pulling shit like this then go back, rewrite your rules, and make sub categories for each game mode.
Literally so tired of coming on here and seeing people with valid points try to argue with a brick wall and an egotistic maniac. This server needs a culture change so desperately and the staff don't help. Your server during the week has like 50 players on it total, I think it should be pretty obvious by now why people are leaving.
lol you sound like you are reading off a script. Had to re-read your message like 5 times. Anyways I’m replying to what marine said “Since Blacklists are case by case it’s impossible to list all the reasons” WHICH is why I said that you can manually type of the offenses the players has committed. As of right now you have to actually appeal to ban just to know what you got banned for! If you think that is a good system then you should not be staff on ANY server. Not only that you have to fill in all this extra info on your appeal, like I don’t even know what I’m banned for!! How am I supposed to write a correct appeal with a single ban message “Blacklisted Player”. It is beyond ridiculous.
Imagine getting banned because you comboed someone. The staff get pissed because people cheat on here but the reality is people have so little respect for you as staff members and know your anticheat is so bad that they can bhop and have arms as long as Elastagirl and you don't get banned.
Not to publicly shame him but Rioz. I'll wait.
Separate names with a comma.