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Discussion On the polish streamer and the server

Discussion in 'MineZ' started by OneZedArmy, Nov 12, 2019.

Discussion - On the polish streamer and the server
  1. OneZedArmy Silver

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    .

    A quick rundown: the Graf guy, polish streamer who streamed MineZ some days ago and made it have almost 200 people and four different servers before he got killed multiple times by premium pvpers until he got tired and left on bad terms I'd say, and with him the polish players. A short video of it can be found here:




    The recorder got banned and blacklisted for streaming but, unlike some who would want this to be only, it's not about streamsniping and if it should be allowed or not. I think everyone agrees that it is a valid way to play the game and that this ban is unfair, so rather this is more about the consequences of those actions.

    A chance in months where MineZ had almost two hundred people and four servers and translate it into new regular players is denied because some people would rather use their time ruining it, but then complain about "shitbow" never having players and being a dead server and they somehow cannot connect the two things. Then they proceed to kill the new players but never wondered why staff wants to make spawn gear less overpowered. And this happened already multiple times in the past with xqc for example.

    But also something worth mentioning is the mantra very often heard here that goes that "staff never listens to their community" implying it as if it was a bad thing, considering who are the people that are part of the community, especially the most vocal ones, who I will say aren't the most intelligent nor the most respectable bunch. Staff is always bad according to them, but staff often comes from those most vocal, influential and active people on the server, it's almost as if it all explains why the incompetence and corruption. It's almost as if most people playing on this server and especially the veteran premium ones are at the very least immoral. Really makes you think.

    Then you see these pictures from one of UTC's traderuns while Graf was streaming, but roleplayer man bad right? Roleplayers bad, Irishkaiser bad, and if you disagree you are a random. There is a world of difference between the video and these pictures. It is clear who is capable of creating a healthy server and playerbase that works. I did not make this thread seeking approval, rather I made this expecting disapproval because I have confronted every demographic that roams these forums and I'm not defending staff like it seems some of them think. In all honesty I hope every polish kid who came here by Graf has left the server by now before being dragged into the sh*thole that is this server and made a worse person.

    [IMG]

    [IMG]
    Goliac, Fridge2177, IvanDoomy and 6 others like this.

  2. Prompted Regular Member

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    Streamsniping should be bannable. Plain and simple. Can't think of any other game where it's allowed.
  3. Mr_3141592653589 Regular Member

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    Lets analyse this from a few perspectives. The technical, the Attitudes and my own personal perspective.
    Technical perspective
    The rules found here list absolutely nothing about "blacklisted players" or banning people for stream sniping. The closest thing that can be inferred as that would be Rule 5, specifically "Player Harassment", but killing a player or targetting a player is not player harassment, it's just playing the game. From this we can note that the Staff have at least one problem from this set of problems: Cognitive Dissonance, Lack of Training, Failure to understand the situation correctly. It's worth noting they had perfect reasoning to do it in the small text at the bottom.

    From this we can conclude that their banning process is flawed, their understanding of the players and how they act is also likely flawed, and their understanding of streaming is likely flawed. If you ban someone for targetting someone in a video or a stream you set a dangerous precedent for everyone else who chooses to make videos or stream. Does this legitimise banning anyone who kills streamers? Perhaps. It's a slippery slope and in this case I feel strongly the Staff made a VERY VERY POOR DECISION here.

    Attitudes perspective
    This is biased because I'm in favour of roleplayers, however it should be noted that the entire social aspect of the game was removed without alternative for multiple months. I haven't been counting, but I'm going to guess 4 Months here. By doing such a thing, the developers and designers are killing any roleplay and social aspect to the game. This leaves roleplayers heavily dismissed by the Staff as a group to not bother catering for. A similar story can be seen for PVPers with most changes favouring the PVE Dungeoneers over many patch notes. A lot of the patches have also been to balancing the game unnecessarily. Then there is the attitude of premiums and the selection process for staff commonly being among the Premiums, in large part due to the uneven nature of Administrators playing with the Premiums, and bringing their biases, understandings, misunderstandings and judgements. With such a skew, you unfairly favour a very specific culture of player, as represented in OneZedArmy's first video.

    Personal perspective
    Finally my own opinion mirrors true with most of what OneZedArmy has said here:
    Both Administrators, and the Premium Culture has successfully managed to show not only their moral corruption, but their cognitive dissonance by blaming the administrators while making themselves the administrators repeating their cycle. And they did all this for the camera. It's truly horrid and abysmal, and has been a problem that has been echoed for many years, going back all the way to 2013 with the Cassmich Controversy. The Wholemilk video of this can be found, and a screenshot showing the Administrator corruption that has existed for so long can also be found. There was also a thread on the old, now defunct and 404'd MineZ forums that was not webarchived unfortunately(if anyone can recover what was said in it, I would appreciate it). One might wonder why I choose to bring this up, and the reason is very simple. This has been a recurring pattern throughout MineZ history for the last 6 years.

    Final words on this? Screw the premiums, Screw the admins, you were all born and made for each other's filth.
    Meme_MC and OneZedArmy like this.
  4. Meme_MC Platinum

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    utc streamsniped gloryblade multiple times while he streamed because he had killed one of their members. this is exactly what the blacklisted player did, and i specifically mentioned to the utc the reasons why they shouldnt do it (which happen to be the same ones you presented). neither groups seem capable of creating a healthy server and playerbase

    source: i was in the utc when this happened
    connor564 likes this.
  5. Kruziikaazjun Regular Member

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    UNKNOWN [?] Trading Company never did streamsniped Gloryblade. In fact, I think you're just hiding behind our veil, taking all the good but disregarding all the responsibilities. Anything you do without our direct oversight is on you and not on us. Especially personal responsibility, like that time we gave you full information and context to attempt Spookyfest and you agreed that in the end, we'd burn the loot but instead you didn't when the time came and instead of honoring or keeping your promise, you broke it because you wanted to keep the loot that we agreed would happen to it.

    If you're like that, then I don't think you're credible on what UTC did or did not do because your experience with them is an abusive relationship where you take all the benefits and disregard all responsibilities given.

    source: I was UTC and still am UTC when all of what you said happened.

    We're a clan that allows freedom of play but yes, it is true... A lot of people don't like the responsibilities that come with the freedom provided. So, that's understandable.
    OneZedArmy likes this.
  6. Meme_MC Platinum

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    i wasnt the one who streamsniped him. cyclone and whichever regiment he lead at the time was. his actions represented the utc as a clan when he did it as he was in it. if that wasnt the case, then the blacklisted player stream sniping or certain people getting admin cant be used to stereotype premiums or admins. if were bringing up spookyfest, i did break my part of the promise then went back and gave not only the pumpkin but all loot i got during the event for utc to burn. it was then all lost when they were attacked, and i asked for compensation which you personally agreed to. i was never given anything, and when i asked a utc member why not (after i left), he said that you never said i would be compensated. if its like that, then i dont think youre credible on what i did or did not do because your actions express a clear distaste for me for a reason i dont necessarily know
    connor564 and cyclone_43 like this.
  7. cyclone_43 Silver

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    Actually Irish, we did stream snipe Glory blade after he had tried to kill Unmaskme. Myself, Unmaskme, and a couple others 4v1ed him in early 2017.

    Gloryblade tried to kill Unmaskme but lost her in the woods, then myself, and some others I think sunraptor and maybe a 234th guy, but I'm not sure, went and stream sniped him. There were multiple company members from different regiments there.

    [admin's note: combined double post here]
    connor564, Meme_MC and Fridge2177 like this.
  8. Kruziikaazjun Regular Member

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    If we go from this logic, no way can anyone in their circumstances be able to exercise their free independent will or choices. When we ourselves have made it clear that people are free to bandit but should not expect protection from the rest of us. We have even judged and condemned actions such as this especially against those who attempted to subvert the entire UTC into their personal war or grudge just because without proper consultation from the rest of us.

    I will let the pattern of events and facts speak for themselves. You may deny it, but it's happening.

    It was only the pumpkin. I allowed you to keep the rest, remember. Regardless, you gave only a specific item to me and I told you to keep the rest

    Did you read that what you just said is the following: "I broke my promise. I gave it back. Now I want to do an uno reverse card". The reason you don't remember I compensated you was because I NEVER TOOK ANYTHING FROM YOU THAT WASN'T YOURS TO BEGIN WITH IN THE FIRST PLACE. Then you come up to me demanding a debt now?

    Here, as proof this was taken on November 6th, 2016. Yours. Well beyond what I would have taken immediately.

    [IMG]

    Assuming your current Discord name is Avery#6068 was the one that sent that.

    https://imgur.com/KJl9fAQ

    If you're looking for the guilty, you need only look in a mirror. Perhaps you misremember because I only took what was ours by right and insisted and reminded you to keep what is yours. No compensation was necessary because I specifically remember reminding you and returning your items in your alt.

    I do remember this happened with you though. You protested about your friends being banned for a bit over world downloading MineZ Origins or something and you destroyed a lot of your rares in protest

    https://shotbow.net/forum/threads/lol-xd-1-5.381772/#post-2966887

    Are you sure you did not misremember that you destroyed the loot that I didn't take from you there?
    Meme_MC and OneZedArmy like this.
  9. Meme_MC Platinum

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    that is my loot, the last 5 items in the second and third rows being the spooky loot

    at the time of the burning, you had all these items along with the pumpkin on one of the alts present at the burning which was then killed

    that was not at all close to the reason i did it. i would think youd take the time to find out, but i guess throwing around lies isnt really that big of a deal

    looking at each of the videos, none of the loot in my nov 6th screenshot was on any of those alts. im not sure how i "destroyed the loot" that i didnt have but again, throwing around lies isnt really that big of a deal

    regardless, this thread shouldnt be us arguing. youre free to continue in my pms (unless you would prefer this all to be public) but its very obvious this is to discuss the points onezed brought up on the incident
    BurnedApplePie likes this.
  10. Mistri Community Manager, PR Lead

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    I'd like to emphasize this — it's getting kind-of off topic here so let's bring the argument to the PMs and stay on the topic of the thread. Thanks!
    Meme_MC likes this.
  11. Kruziikaazjun Regular Member

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    If you question my credibility in the future, then please present evidence for the burden of proof lies on the accuser. I presented mine using your sources from your own words.


    Then continue from my argument here from which you conveniently ignored to target my credibility: I will let the pattern of events and facts speak for themselves. You may deny it, but it's happening.
    OneZedArmy likes this.
  12. bombermatt360 Regular Member

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    There is NO reason that killing someone in MineZ should be bannable, whether they were streaming or not. They should know what they are getting themselves into if they go live. They should be prepared to fight, if they aren't, then they don't understand the game. This is an always online game with one server, and a community with a taste of blood in their mouth. You're insane if you think you can survive Al Hasa, while streaming! 2B2T, while it isn't at all similar to MineZ gameplay-wise, it is a server with the same streaming problem. People stream snipe all the time over there if you aren't careful. So what do people do if they want to stream, they expect to be killed.
    Also, this guy shouldn't get mad over dying in MineZ. That's just proof you're a new player who expects to get success handed to them. It's not that big of a deal.
    It is pretty sad that 200 players were lost because of these "stream snipers," though--well no, it wasn't them who caused all the players to leave; it was the streamer. His bad attitude towards death caused his fans to think the same way, so grow up; MineZ is a game where you start from the very beginning sometimes.
  13. Mr_3141592653589 Regular Member

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    None of what I said in that quote was directed to whether or not killing people should be bannable or not. It was about Admins, biases, and the different cultures that have merged.
    If you want my thoughts on what you said, I think it shouldn't be at all bannable for killing a player as it violates no rule. Whether or not it should be made a rule, I think it shouldn't be as it's impossible to enforce well just like their alt account decision being difficult to enforce.
  14. bombermatt360 Regular Member

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    Sorry if it wasn't clear, but the reason I quoted your post was because I agree with you, and think that the Admins are becoming incredibly strict, and not banning based on the rules, but on their personal biases and beliefs on right and wrong. I think the corruption of the admin team has a big part in this. I really should have made my post more clear on why I was quoting your post, sorry.
    boogaert and Mr_3141592653589 like this.
  15. Meifot Silver

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    Stream sniping should certainly be bannable, as it only serves as a detriment to the server. Banditing on the other hand is part of the game and should be allowed as long as those doing it are not stream sniping. If people really want the server to improve they need to stop doing things to hinder that same thing.
  16. bombermatt360 Regular Member

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    35,124xp


    Why should we hold those who are streaming in a higher regard than regular players? And how is it a detriment to the server? Graf's viewers left because he ragequit, not because he was being killed. Sure, streamsniping may help, as it might have been an indirect cause, but as Mr_3141592653589 said,

    Ultimately, streamers should not be placed higher on the podium and expect not to be killed simply because they are revealing their position. And Graf does have premium, so he could just go onto PvE if he didn't want to be killed.
    But, in the present state, the streamsnipers deserve to be unbanned. What they did was not against the rules.
  17. Meifot Silver

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    77,137xp


    Simply because stream sniping is bad, and leads to the aforementioned ragequiting. I would rather remove it as a factor all together. The game is not meant to be experienced with your position revealed at all times. It also protects people who are bringing lots of new people to shotbow, something I am sure everyone can get behind.
  18. InstantLightning WebMod Lead

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    I'd just like to chime in for a short bit. Streamers in general are going to feel discouraged to stream the game if every time they do stream, theyre killed over and over by a select group of people who are watching the stream. What's the point of playing if you can't get anywhere? Shotbow wants higher numbers, but how are we going to do that if streamers are discouraged from playing? To continue, the alt rule is not unenforceable or hard to enforce. We have caught several people alting and have issued a lot of bans on it. It's also easy to tell if people are stream sniping. There are certain behaviors that give this off completely. For example, in my time as admin I have seen people cross the entire map just to kill a streamer. I have also seen people wait and hide fully kitted at a place where they knew the streamer was going to kill them, and I have seen several other actions that made it obvious what they are doing. In conclusion, if it was bannable it would not be too hard to tell if someone was stream sniping, and if we were not sure whether they were stream sniping or not, we would not ban them
  19. Mr_3141592653589 Regular Member

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    The very least service you could provide for all players who are banned for this, is to list these as rulings in a VERY EXPLICIT AND CLEAR MANNER, that defines the offence well. Forum posts and even pinned forum posts are very poor way of doing this, as not every player checks the Forums. The rules page is a good choice for where you could put them, or actually put them in the game in an obvious way. The lack of this VERY BASIC MEASURE does a MASSIVE DISSERVICE TO EACH AND EVERY PLAYER.

    This covers both, alt-banning, and stream-sniping banning. It is also not obvious how far alts are bannable unless they look for the relevant forum post.

    The definitions seem very arbitrary for alt-banning, and circumvented easily by a VPN. For those of you who will say that Shotbow prevents Proxies and VPNs, that is true, but they can only do this with a predefined blacklist of IPs for known VPNs. This means anyone with the technical knowhow(or more accurately anyone who can read a tutorial and follow it) can setup their own VPN server to circumvent this.The linked article is an example of one such tutorial which demonstrates this and its feasability, and doing this you also have control over the location so it can seem much more like a legitimate user. As for Stream-sniping, one can very easily make the argument you're thinking about it in the wrong way, and instead should be providing tools to help the streamers prevent themselves being stream-sniped. Such features would include but not limited to: the ability to change the user's name to something generic and the ability to access PVE Servers. These features are already present in other Minecraft Servers(Hypixel), and in Rust.

    Additionally, it should be called into question your expertise as an Administrator, as a very important anti-cheating measure is to not tell people HOW the Anti-cheat works, but rather to tell them WHY they were banned. Questions about your success rate and enforceability could be quelled easily by providing a statistical breakdown of the number of bans that occurred and their reasons in the "Dentril's New Moon" forum posts. It is up to the user to provide evidence they were unbanned unfairly, and if they were unbanned unfairly it brings a lot of question about the effectiveness of your anti-cheat software and banning protocols.

    Summarily, Shotbow fails to provide features for Streamers to improve their experience, fails to categorise what a Streamer is and isn't, fails to provide adequate rulings on the Alt-banning and Stream-sniping rules, and fails to follow proper procedure when it comes to Anti-Cheating measures by explaining how they work. It should also be noted how the Staff immediately jump to banning players instead of considering alternative measures, as this says a lot about their mindset approaching such changes.
    Treetop_Archer and boogaert like this.
  20. Mistri Community Manager, PR Lead

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    Concerning your statements about rules — we totally agree, they need to be posted on the Rules page. In fact, we just had a discussion about that internally today. We're going to be creating an extension to the rules page in the next few weeks that has concrete rules about gamemode specific policies, such as alting. Thanks for bringing that up!
    kbsfe and ArsMagia like this.

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