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My thoughts about 1.9

Discussion in 'Mine Theft Auto' started by MCDuckler, Apr 20, 2017.

My thoughts about 1.9
  1. MCDuckler Platinum

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    302,199xp
    Hey guys, i just wanted to write this, so im doing it now.

    The Map
    The new map-parts are just GREAT. I love exploring the new parts and i love swimming with my gang in the new see ;3.
    But i also found a little bug that isnt a big deal, its just that in a shop, one certain villager alaways gives a bunch of particles around him, across all instances and at different days. Heres a picture. The shop is located in front of the fuel station near to vanetian condos.
    For the rest nothing really to complain about here, great work guys. Really. Huge improvement. Believe me. Very huge.

    The new Combat Updates
    Well i actually really like it. Its great that there are no RL and RPG Spammer anymore. Also i really like that the new Bandage Cooldown. Now i dont have to spend so much money just for bs, because in 1.8 you did not had a chance against most of the other players without tons of bs.
    But thats also (for me) the next problem: Im often playing as a normal cop to safe money, but since 1.9 i dont really have a chance, cause everybody comes with a Marksman Rifle and gets me to 2 Hearts with one single bullet, and i cant heal myself fast enough. I (and also a lot of others tbh) am thinking the Marksman could get a little bit weaker (maybe 1 to 1.5 hearts? :wink:) to improve the balance. But the rest seems to be pretty well done here.

    The new Kit Prices
    Oh my, dont now where to start here. To make things clear: I dont have anything against the idea to pay more for a modded gun. But i actually really dont get why the price of a maxed gun in a kit is so much more than if you mod the gun yourself. And again: I dont have anything against the idea that i have to pay more for a maxed gun, but right now noone would ever create a kit, as its so much cheaper to mod the gun yourself.
    The next thing is something that i REEAAALLLY want to get fixed: A kit with a maxed gun from 1.8 still has the same low price in 1.9, and not the new higher price. And there are a few players that have a second account with a AK in their old 1.8 Kit, which costs exactly 1,5k for them. And as the AK is now the new scarbine, everyone wants the AKs and everyone has to pay the same high price. Except for the few players with the old 1.8 AK kit. So thats really unfair and makes the game really unbalanced, because if you die you will lose much more than they, or in other words: You have to pay much more to get the exact same equip as they. And yes i already wrote a Bug Report. Just wanted to explain why im so angry because of that.

    The rest of the Update is also very good. Shotbow made much thinks better with it.:D

    -Duckler

  2. 00110101 Regular Member

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    221,382xp
    MTA Shotbow Staff is the best on Shotbow, since it helped revive the game and it began to make the average amount of players on MTA increase

    10/10 staff
  3. KounterattacK Gold

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    138,335xp
    Binary agreed. Yes, I agree about the kit prices.
  4. Dewdjulator Regular Member

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    240,232xp

    I can see why some people would have a problem with the kitted cost of maxed guns being significantly higher than the cost of maxing a gun manually but that's because _people are thinking of kits as a means of duplicating_. That is not the point of a kit, merely a result of a kit.

    The true purpose of a kit is to be equiped and ready from the moment you spawn.

    You can max your guns more cheaply if you do it manually, right? Ok, then what happens when you die? Well then you have to spend time getting your equipment out of your backpack. If you don't have an entire kit in your backpack? Then you have to spend time heading to one of your houses, go through your chests, and equip everything. Don't have ready-maxed guns? Then you have to spend the time maxing them at an anvil. Don't have attachements stored for use? Then you have to spend time going to an Ammunation to buy the attachments. Don't have money? Then you have to go to an ATM or Banker NPC to withdraw money.

    You see what I'm saying? That's all time you could have spent getting back into the fight. That's time others are spending grabbing and sorting through your stuff. That's time your allies are fighting without you. That's time your enemies are spending moving around, necessitating that you search for them to re-engage them.

    The measure of a kit is not how expensive it is but rather _how ready you are upon spawning_. That has a price and you're seeing it. Otherwise, death would merely be a relocation and drain on money, which makes it a proxy competition for who has more money to keep the fight going.

    To draw an analogy: The United States has the largest active armed forces on the planet, ready to deploy at a moments notice. This does not come cheaply as they spend as much as the other top 13 countries' armed forces combined. Such is the cost of "readiness".
    Ktrompfl and DucklerNumberOne like this.
  5. MCDuckler Platinum

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    302,199xp
    But still i dont know anybody who uses the new kits with maxed guns...
    Ultimativemaster and Dewdjulator like this.
  6. Sherlock_Shears Regular Member

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    62,035xp
    This cannot be the true purpose for a few simple reasons.
    1. Let's say your kit has 2 maxed guns, a full set of diamond armour, a jetpack, a stack of ammo and food. Let's also say this kit costs 50k. Do you seriously plan on carrying 50k around with you everytime you get in a fight so that you can jump straight back in?
    2. When you get killed by a player, they take a portion of your money on hand, which is usually around 20% but it can vary. So for you to claim this hypothetical kit, you would have to at least carry 60k on you, and like I said, it varies, so you still may not have enough to claim the kit.
    3. When the exact same item can be obtained through 2 different means that vary massively in price, it effects the market and cash flow of the server in some strange ways. Why would a maxed gun obtained through a kit cost more than a gun that you max yourself? It would be like me trying to sell you a TV for £1000 when it's only worth £500. It's a complete rip off. Either make the system worth people's money like the 1.8 version which took a decent chunk of money to create the kit but then gave you the items at the price they're actually worth or just remove it all together.

    Players who advance through the game and are smart can fully equip themselves for a fight in under 60 seconds. Paying double the price to save less than 60 seconds is not only pointless, but also a complete waste of money.

    A real war risks the lives of millions, possibly billions of people who will not have a 2nd chance once they die. A war on MTA causes 2 or 3 people to die and respawn in 5 seconds. It would take the US army lifetimes to rebuild what they had if it was all taken away. It takes us 60 seconds. There is little to no comparison to be made between the two.
  7. de3tr0yer2025 Regular Member

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    5,101xp
    In my opinion and in the opinion of many others the new kit costs are extremely stupid and just make no sense.
    Kits now (no matter what occasion) will likely NEVER be used. It should not cost 50 to kit a gun I can make for 10k then another 50k if you wish to use it. It just widens the gap between higher and low level players because we will not begin to ride the price for our sales of maxed guns which high level players already have stockpiles of. It will only affect those who do not have the stockpiles we do. And as for readiness I can garuntee that any player with common sense will much rather take 2 minutes to go grab their gear from their house or already have their gear in their backpack which isn't that hard to go and refill. This is a videogame and not even one trying to be realistic so it does not make sense to use real world examples. This will only make a very useful feature worthless and hurt those newer players that now have to go out and buy everything they need
    Micatchu, Dewdjulator and Saber527 like this.
  8. Saber527 Platinum

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    111,707xp

    I do not think it is fair to assume that the entire MTA population thinks about kits in the way you portray. No one thought about kits is a correct one, nor does it seem that the suggestion you represent is the most popular one -- everyone has different feelings for the use of a kit, and in the end it doesn't just come down to duplication. What's safe to say, however, a kit is a kit, no matter how it is used by the players. And the problem with all of this, simply, is that most people cannot afford to use them anymore, which is defeating the entire purpose of the kit.

    If this is so, how can players continue to equip themselves when the cost to use a kit even once is an insanely unrealistic amount of money? Even if kits have this as their true purpose as you suggest, that in itself is still excessively difficult to afford. At this point, no one bothers to carry tens of thousands of dollars on hand -- they'll lose a fair portion of it on death, as Sherlock said. It has become more cost-efficient to max out guns yourself and buy armor/ammo/whatever by hand as opposed to getting it from the kits they paid to create.

    So doesn't that defeat the purpose? How can players even get themselves equipped when they spawn if they simply cannot afford it?

    With all of the above in consideration, only those who are over-the-top rich can be ready to have themselves all gear up as soon as they spawn in. And in the case of MTA, that does not serve the majority of the population. At this point, death is a drain on money. Fighting should not be so heavily dependent on the amount of cash a player has, but rather their actual skill in a fight. It has become a matter of money to afford a kit as opposed to having the skill to use it. Is that what PVP battles are supposed to be about?

    I wouldn't go quite as far as to compare a shooting game to the real-life military. In real life, it is definitely a more serious manner, with real souls at the line, and as Sherry said, second chances aren't given in reality once you're killed.

    All in all, those were my two cents, now. Do I disagree that kits have been misused in the past? No. I disagree with how they are so expensive, and the burden it can put onto the players. PVP in itself is becoming less and less frequent -- real quality PVP in heightened gear, the thrilling kind that make playing MTA worthwhile -- and one of the reasons is the expense at which it costs to have a battle.
    Micatchu, Dewdjulator and Ktrompfl like this.
  9. LegitNube Platinum

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    538,768xp
    Whoa, 1-1.5 hearts? No way. And if you realize, level advantage still exists, it is just extremely nerfed. I have tested it
  10. Dewdjulator Regular Member

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    240,232xp
    Ok, there's a lot for me to respond to and organize my thoughts on. Bear with me on the incoming wall of text...

    What you're saying is not wrong. You are paying for the guns, attachments, armor, etc. Assemble all the components you're packing into the kit for the bill of materials and the price should be equivalent to the individual costs, right? Well, yes... for the materials alone.

    Normally, gun attachments must be bought only from Ammunation NPCs. Purchasing them requires that you travel there with the money, purchase the attachments, and make your way to an anvil somewhere. Most of the guns can be bought "online", except for four of them, but the attachments are a part of the production pipeline where you can't just buy from any location and must apply them at specific locations.

    The labor and shipping are another issue entirely. What you are effectively paying for is the labor of assembly, packaging, and shipping... all at once, in the span of the ~5 seconds it takes to respawn. You are not drawing from your reserves in your houses, you are effectively buying brand new guns, all the attachments for those guns _without the need to go to an anvil_, all the ammo for those guns, all the armor, and whatever other items in your kit. You are generating new items, items that did not exist at any time prior in the world, fully upgraded in a span of time I could guarantee you would not be able to achieve manually, even using teleport commands (which themselves take 5 seconds) and bus stops (instant!).

    You are not paying more for the guns and attachments themselves, you're paying for something more: time.

    Here's an alternative analogy: just like when you order something online and choose the shipping speed, the sooner you want it, the more expensive it gets. Most people are satisfied with 3-5 day shipping or 3 day shipping. However, if you want it sooner, such as same-day shipping, then it gets more expensive and they start to charge higher rates per lb or Kg.

    Again, there is a price to pay for that capability.

    Consider this, if the cost of kitting everything was equivalent to the cost of manually doing it, what would be the point of stockpiling weapons if you were paying the same price anyway? None. But finding and stockpiling things would arguably decrease the cost because you just need to pay the difference for the attachments you'd be adding. However, you were spending time looking around and _time is a resource_, same as money and any equipment. If you don't have, or want to spend, the time doing something then you _pay someone else to do it_ (with the benefit of them probably being more skilled). You pay others to spend their time to do something for you, that applies to every service and product you have bought.

    Like I said with my shipping analogy above, the faster you want it, the more expensive it gets. There are _diminishing returns_ as you decrease the time it takes to get something.

    This is the core of the problem and something a lot of people will be misunderstanding me on. I am _not_ making an argument for _the exact prices as they stand_, I am making an argument that the price of kitting a gun should still be higher than just manually gathering, upgrading, and storing them in advance. What I do not know, have not claimed to know, and have not proposed is a _good balance of price to capacity_ of a kit. I believe the cost will likely come down but I don't believe it should be equivalent to the cumulative cost of the items themselves. You're paying for a convenience, I think the discussion should center around just how much of a premium that costs.

    There's no question of the high expenses of kitting maxxed guns. I don't believe the question should be a binary issue of whether you can afford it or not, but rather a matter of how much can you afford it? When do you choose to use it? How many times before it's no longer worth it or you can't afford it anymore?

    I apologize if I come across as insensitive for saying this but war is not just the death and destruction. Countries, races, whatever factions are involved, they go to war with the intention of diverting finances from other fields and dedicating them to the war effort. It doesn't matter what you're fighting for, who could be argued to actually be right (heh...), ulterior motives for the actions taken, etc. All that matters is how much each side is willing to invest in the fight and keep investing in the fight until one side is practically destroyed, considers its losses to be too great to continue, or simply does not have the means to continue even if they wanted to. In essence, "might makes right" and it's expensive to develop, maintain, and exert that might. If you remove the factor of lives in MTA, then the only thing you can do to get one side to back down is if they are defeated psychologically, or if their losses exceed what they are willing to sacrifice. War is very much an economic action, consuming resources, with the future of a country, and people, on the line.

    If you'd prefer, I could try using more business analogies but the underlying logic would remain the same.

    And for how long can you sustain your actions before you or your enemies give up?
    Ktrompfl likes this.
  11. noobfan Mine Theft Auto Lead

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    138,393xp
    This was fixed ages ago, about 2 days after the release :wink:
    DucklerNumberOne likes this.
  12. Micatchu Platinum

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    323,907xp
    So ok, maybe it was a bit op that it was actually cheaper to have your maxed gun in a kit than making a new one. But then still, why did it have to be adjusted it to a level where no sane person would ever put it in a kit again. Because no one will, so the whole functionality has become useless. you could better just have said that maxed guns weren't allowed in kits any more. because yes the effect is exactly the same :(

    I have talked about this in other posts before and I'm happy it's now finally getting the attention it deserves. So yes, no problem that it got adjusted, but why not within reason? why not make it like 50% more expensive or something, so that it Strategically still had some value to add it to your kit.

    All it's giving me now it's the headache of buying tons of attachments what I carry around in my backpack + a number of already maxed guns. That's just tiring and has no added play-value to me. I really really hope this will be adjusted to some reasonable level :(
  13. MCDuckler Platinum

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    302,199xp
    yup :D but i personally think i still wont buy it if its 50% more :lmao: (okay depends on the gun)
    Ultimativemaster likes this.
  14. LegitNube Platinum

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    538,768xp
    I can give you a bit of credit for trying to address the problems, but after reading what you wrote, you probably have MOST of the things wrong. War, gang wars. Basically just KOS or kill on sight, most of us just use our money without caring, it's about how competitive it is, we like to get more power, not money. Now, Saber, is level 120 something, sherlock has two level 80 accounts, and des is like level 70 something, and I'm level 181. You are level 30-40. If we were to put this to level wise, we have far more experience compared to you. You also spoke about factions, in MTA, its gangs. Factions, you capture lands and build bases. If you were to ever be in a big gang war, you would understand. Money is infinite being made from selling guns, heisting, nearly everything you do besides buying is making you money.
    Ktrompfl likes this.
  15. Dewdjulator Regular Member

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    240,232xp
    This is what's called an Appeal to Authority. It's a logical fallacy that bases its "argument" on someone's standing rather than on any points to support itself. You have not said anything that supports your argument.

    You are being pedantic about that word.

    Pedantic (Adjective)

    3. Being finicky or fastidious, especially with language.

    You're referring to the use of the word in Minecraft multiplayer, I'm referring to the word in general use.

    Faction (Noun)

    1. A group of people, especially within a political organization, which expresses a shared belief or opinion different from people who are not part of the group.

    Before you start trying to argue what is and isn't politics:

    Politics (Noun)

    4.Political maneuvers or diplomacy between people, groups, or organizations, especially involving power, influence or conflict.

    Individual players are "people". A "gang" is a kind of group. "Political maneuvers", in this case, is trying to influence the prices of maxed guns in kits.

    Two can play at this game. Let's get on with the only point you argued.

    "... most of us just use our money without caring..."

    That is interesting because there are people who certainly do "care" about the use of their money when the price is high enough. Why do they care? Because if the price (such as kitted, maxed guns), multiplied by the times it is payed (each time you respawn with the kit active), is comparable to the amount of money you have in store _at the moment_ then you can conceivably run out of money for a period of time.

    "... we like to get more power, not money."

    Let's try to define power...

    Is "power" your influence? With what do you influence people? The only influence you can count on, in this game, is whether or not you kill someone. How do you kill someone? With guns, be they maxed or not. How do you survive? By dodging, high defense (armor, drugs), healing (bands, pots), and killing someone before they kill you. How do you equip yourself to do that? By finding a bunch of equipment and stockpiling them or buying them outright. In the case of the latter, how do you buy them? You spend money.

    What would happen if you run out of money? You can't afford to buy the things you equip yourself with.

    In other words: Money can be equated as "power".

    Money is a means and not an end. Until the money is spent, the money is just paper. It is representative (Fiat Money), meaning that it has no worth by itself. In trading the money for something, it can be argued to have value. What are you spending that money on? That is the big question.

    Yes, it is "infinite" but _over time_, not infinite in relation to how much you can spend at any one moment. Everyone goes through periods of "earning" and "spending" money but when you spend money faster than you are earning it? If you keep that trend going then at some point in time you will have nothing to spend and you will have to go back to a phase of earning it again.
    Ktrompfl and Saber527 like this.
  16. LegitNube Platinum

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    538,768xp
    I do not agree. I have more money than some people that can beat me. How are you suppose to know what a gang war is like without going through one?

    You are also trying to bring back the original all level advantage. Why is that? You have the more advantage side. I can't even play without merged level advantage.
  17. LegitNube Platinum

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    With such low experience and not being in a gang war, why mention it. Everyone in this topic that have actually been in a gang war disagree with you.
  18. Sherlock_Shears Regular Member

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    62,035xp
    Having more experience than someone supports your argument. Legit has almost a year of experience in MTA and has most probably lived through every event or situation that could realistically happen between players. If you feel that experience gives no support to an argument, please go have an argument with someone like Stephen Hawking about the cosmos and see if experience and knowledge supports your argument. I'd bet my life he would win said argument with anyone less experienced or knowledgeable about the subject.
    Saber527 likes this.
  19. KounterattacK Gold

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    138,335xp

    Im not going to get in the middle of this (despite how much I would like to, as I thrived on stuff like this for a while), but I will say this. MTA has both all the logic in the world, and none of it. All this bickering does little to nothing; if it serves no purpose (which dont try to argue that it does, because it truly doesnt) then there is no point in arguing about it. Legit, if you read this, I suggest you just let this guy win, as he is clearly out thinking you. And you Dewd, 2 things. 1, you are pretty new, and despite how ironic and sarcastic is sounds, the phrase "respect your elders" does make an appearance in this argument. And 2: linking big words and trying to sound like you know what you are talking about is an Amazing way to make enemies (trust me from experience). Anyways, good to say something on the forums again, and keep arguing despite everything I just said :)

    -Kounter
    Micatchu and Saber527 like this.
  20. LegitNube Platinum

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    538,768xp
    Uh, weren't you talking about how much they sucked like one month ago :lmao:

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