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Discussion How the Apple "nerf" didn´t change the Gapple-meta!

Discussion in 'Annihilation' started by Tobi472, Nov 16, 2020.

Discussion - How the Apple "nerf" didn´t change the Gapple-meta!
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What is making gapples strong in the current meta?

Ppl not dropping 8 vote(s) 36.4%
Ppl not takeing KB 14 vote(s) 63.6%
Ppl always beeing able to mine the nexus 12 vote(s) 54.5%
No real counterplay 7 vote(s) 31.8%
Other (comment) 0 vote(s) 0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Tobi472 Platinum

    XP:
    1,704,505xp
    The title says it all. Gapples are still the way most games end and how every clanwar is beeing played.

    As you can read from the latest patch, the apple drop rate has been lowered because Gapples are common in every ingame situation. It can be a fight in middle, mine rushing or the traditional nexus rush.
    The dev/ balance team want to have a strong late game finish item in the game but at the same point they dont want it to be used for other stategies. This is why they made it "harder" to obtain.

    Unfortunately I am totally disagreeing on the dev choice here.
    To quote myself: "They just moved the problem somewhere else and thats poor game design bc they didnt adress the actual problem."
    The actual problem beeing: 1. No possible way to kill a full diamond who is gappled up.
    2. No KB which knocks ppl away from mining the nexus.
    3. You progress on mining the nexus is NOT getting interupted / its getting saved until you mine again IF somene is siting in front of your face.

    Those 3 combined result into cheap nexus takedowns, which have no counterplay other than voiding. (BTW Swapper is likely to be changed bc of some crybabies who cant effort enderpearls)

    I would support the actual state of the Gapple if we could know for certain that some changes to my 2. and 3. point will happen soon.

    I first thought that ppl will just make bigger farms to compensta the lower droprate. After farming a lot myself I noticed that the drop rate of leaves is probly higher than the one of wheat.

    So this is what happend: The first few clanwars after the change ppl struggled to get enough apples. But after a while, looking at yesterday´s clanwar, all 4 teams were destroying leaves for apples and they seemed to get enough out of it.

    Here are some approximated number bc the admins dont tell you:
    I have the feeling that the farmer apple droprate has been decreased by 67%- 75%.( Old rate beeing 100%)
    You get one apple every 333 wheat.

    Now we compare this to leaves:
    Breaking 1000 leaves will get you 5 apples.
    Breaking 1000 wheat will get you 3 apples.

    Personal and friends experiences:
    I was the farmer for my clan in the last 2 matches. We made some really big farms having about 250+ wheat.
    In only one game we were struggling in the earlier stages of the game to get enough apples. In the later stages we had more than enough apples. I farmed about 12-16 apples in the whole game.

    Now we take a look at what cherry did. He was cutting leaves for one minute and got 2 apples in phase 1.

    Moth clan was able to get 8 apples in the first 18 minutes of the game by just investing one player in cutting leaves.

    Now we should see it very clear.
    Me farming for 50 minutes straight with a big farm is maybe 15 apples.
    Someone breaking leaves for 18 minutes is 8 apples.

    Thats the result:
    Farmer for apples is 0.3 apples per minute.
    Leaves for apples is 0.44 apples per minute.

    Keep in mind that we invested multiple ppl in creating a save underground farm for a about 5 miutes each and you dont need anything for breaking leaves other than a few swords.
    Also keep in mind that you can doubble or tripple you apple income by investing 2 or 3 players in breaking leaves which Can NOT be done for the farm.

    Thank you for reading this. I hope to see some changes sooner or later (adminds should be aware of my suggestions regarding gapples) and until than:

    Cut some leaves

  2. Doooner Regular Member

    XP:
    34,355xp
    Hello Tobi472,

    i've read your post and i just want to add something to the discussion thread.
    A way to kill a full diamond who is gappled up is to break it's armor, and i quote the Shotbow Wiki,

    "The Lumberjack class comes with a brick block called "Brute Force". You can activate the Brute Force ability to deal an additional 20 durability damage to enemy armor for the next 10 seconds when using any axe. It has a 45 second cooldown. It takes 33 hits with brute force to break diamond armor 22 hits to break boss buff armour and 19 hits for iron armor".

    Keep in mind that you don't have to break all the pieces of armor to kill a gappled enemy. You only need to break 1 piece of armor to deal enough damage to kill him.

    Thanks for reading.
    Tobi472 likes this.
  3. JeTi_Brothers Platinum

    XP:
    572,377xp
    I agree with your post but I think it is kinda hard to estimate the numbers with so little information. That being said I would like to post some possible solutions we've discussed before as I think you merely state the problem while witholding some viable options you have come up with :stuck_out_tongue:

    Some options (credits to Tobi):
    1. Remove absorption and reduce regen 3 to about 20 seconds.
    2. Remove regen 3 and replace it with the old regen 2 effect, but grant more absorption hearths. Maybe 12-15 in total instead of 8.

    These would nerf the gapples but it would still be very strong. I personally like the second suggestion the most as you will be able to hit through it if you are properly geared, but it will still be very strong against weaker geared teams. A lot of the complaints I've seen against a gapple nerf is that the enemy team is just leather. This will still keep it strong against those types of teams while also giving an enemy that has invested their time properly a chance to actually defeat the rushing team.
    Tobi472 and Doooner like this.
  4. Tobi472 Platinum

    XP:
    1,704,505xp

    Hello Doooner,

    first of all its quite nice to hear that you enjoyed Anniwiki and the written class description by myself :D.

    Even doe the numbers I posted are prooved to be right by myself, there are some issues with it.
    You can hit a player 2 times per second on average. Only one payer can make his hit register at the same time. You may hit the enemy 15 to 25 times per duration but how many og those hits will be true hits? It depends on how many other players hit the enemy and how hast you click. It takes about 3 to 4 lumberjack brute forces to kill a diamond armor. That shows that it is only viable if the enemy has more than 2 gaps.

    Still very good input TY
    Doooner and JeTi_Brothers like this.
  5. Pupuson Platinum

    XP:
    1,060,367xp
    i'd like to share my POV of the current "Gapple" meta.
    Gapples were the thing that made the game actually fun and with action pretty much at all times, but it became a normal thing to see, so i agree with the idea of nerfing apple drop rate but it got nerfed too much.

    another thing, i've noticed that the ones that complain about gapples are pretty much all the time, leather teams, they didn't gear up or try to do something against that besides trying to push him into the void.

    i see same problems as the post above, as well one new problem:
    - bad KB
    - gappled full dias not dying
    - people being too lazy

    possible fixes:
    - KB is up to devs to make it like 1.7
    - buffing strength enough to kill a full dia prot 12 gappled (still having regen 3)
    - buffing strength will probably will make people gear up again, since they will see gappled full dias dying, and wont try to void them.
    - another thing i want too add is to make the nexus like this https://prnt.sc/vkzycy i think, it will promote "defend the nexus with your life", where you basically need to gear up to actually defend your nexus, because you need to sit down in front of nexus to actually def, i.g. full dia with gapple plus strength buff, you might die or the rusher will die.

    i hope i made myself clear.
  6. Capt Platinum

    XP:
    543,675xp
    hot take but what if guys died when you hit them not quite sure why they added reg 3 back after they removed it from alc
  7. Tobi472 Platinum

    XP:
    1,704,505xp
    Thx for your reply! You have got some really good points.

    For the strenght buff: I have no idea why it hasnt been done already. Its one of the things which got requested not only 1 time, more like 10 times in the past years. It would be the biggest change to annihilation we would have seen in recent time.
    I am going to make a new post about strenght/ sterenght balance soon.

    All I have to say here is that I agree with you that with strenght ppl wopuld gear up again since they now have an actual chance to kill rushers!

    If we get a strenght change I am fine with the old nexus design you suggested. Right now I dont think its a good idea bc you cant kill enemy players efficently.
  8. Yammytom Gold

    XP:
    22,636xp
    Didn't the stone walls around the nexus make it so you could block it? Why did they remove them?
  9. AgentPanda_ Platinum

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    420,667xp
    make gold mines 5x bigger and replace all melons with apples :)
    Tobi472 likes this.

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