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Discussion Dungeons have less loot than spawn towns...

Discussion in 'MineZ' started by RoseFredricks, Jul 16, 2017.

Discussion - Dungeons have less loot than spawn towns...
  1. RoseFredricks Artist

    XP:
    45,261xp
    With the most recent update to the dungeon loot chests, many dungeons have become…shit. Flooded Tunnels is a great example of this. Now, Flooded Tunnels definitely isn’t an impossibly difficult dungeon, but it also isn’t something to scoff at. There are 2 difficult parts. Firstly there is the drowning section. What makes this difficult is that it’s impossible to do without a few Health Potions. This means you HAVE to stop at a town before coming here, adding a good 10 minutes to each run. Next there is the lava parkour room. This parkour consists of several four block jumps, a fair few 3 blocks, and a bunch of smaller, but still stressful jumps. Any failed jump in this section is instant death. After a while of farming this dungeon, you can get the jumps pretty well down, but even after 20+ runs, I still only have a success rating of about 50%. Each run, taking into account the traveling, suiciding for a better spawn, looting Grimdale for food and health potions, and the actual dungeon itself takes from 30 minutes to 45 minutes. If I have to do this twice to successfully beat the dungeon, that puts my total time at about 1.25 hours. My reward for this was, assuming all the loot chests spawned, full iron armor at half durability, a Health 3 Potion , 2 or 3 Smite 4 swords at 1/6 durability each, and a useless legendary. (The legendary is useless from 2 angles. Firstly, from some reason, I can’t even draw it, even when I have arrows, making is unusable. Secondly, the intended effect gives whomever is shot with it Speed 3, Poison 1, and Nausea 2 for 5 seconds. The Speed 3 makes it useless in PvP, and the Poison and short duration makes it useless for self-boosting.) Post update, my loot was a few bandages, shears, milk, carrots, a few Health 2 Potions, and a piece of bread. Oh, and also the useless legendary. If that sounds low to you, it’s because it is. That is usually the stuff I leave Grimdale with after looting for 10 minutes.

    In contrast, the Fire Spire, a structure located 50% closer to spawn than Flooded Tunnels, can give you full iron, half durability Feather Falling 4 boots, some Splash Slowness potions, a bunch of baked potatoes, and a Gnawed Bone, after only farming for 30 minutes. Of course to access the loot chests you need to do some parkour, but the parkour has no 4 block jumps, survivable jump failure, and is shorter. Also since the spire is located so close to spawn, you don’t need to hit a town before going to it.

    So what does this all mean? It means that dungeons have been substantially nerfed, while non-dungeons that are easier to access remain unchanged. This makes many of the low to middle tier dungeons pointless, especially if their legendary is garbage, which sadly is the case for many of them. Hopefully the developers realize they have killed one of MineZ’s signature aspects, for the sake of the people who still play MineZ. Personally I quit after they made the endgame inaccessible to solo players like myself, but I still check in from time to time to see if they have reversed that, but realistically, that’s not going to happen :(

    Regardless, thanks for reading this :)
    ohNick, Goliac and Meme_MC like this.

  2. jinl3e Platinum

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    49,036xp
    What are you talking about? Flooded tunnels is easy. The drowning part, you just need 1 health 2 so you're fine. Since I practice parkour a lot (rip my idea) 4 block jumps are easy. If you are having trouble just try to double jump it. Flooded tunnels was meant to be easy and have not much loot. I agree that the legendarys could be more useful. Tbh there wasn't even suppose to be loot at the end of dungeons
  3. Fridge2177 Retired Staff

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    269,370xp
    In my opinion this is a good thing. I liked dungeons much better when there was ONLY a unique prize a the end, and no chests at all. I feel like any dungeon that can fully gear a player will cause people to do it not for fun, but rather to grind it out. The legendaries are almost like trophies that show you have completed a dungeon and adding super good year to the end saturates and has swath rated the PVP style we used to like. Go gear up at frostbain and don't worry so much about getting a God inventory anymore
  4. Aexon Regular Member

    XP:
    18,382xp
    - Crying because dungeons are OP
    - Crying because dungeons don't have loots.



    In my opinion, dungeons should not have any loot chest as they already give the legendary.
    Wtfisthisname and MTrout like this.
  5. GuigaWei Platinum

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    578,041xp
    Maybe they should buff the food given by putting in Apples, Cakes, and Golden Apples. It would still retain the "for fun" idea and refill food for doing parkour, but at the same time provide some opportunity to improve your inventory from before entering. I surely wouldn't want to go through a difficult challenge and not feel rewarded for it. Especially in a dungeon where the legendary item doesn't even work.
  6. FreeCookson Platinum

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    3,771xp
    Dungeon opness wasn't the problem before it was the fact that you could farm the crap out of them.
  7. Nalacion Emerald

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    33,893xp

    I can't stress this enough. The fact that dungeons could give you a decent inventory wasn't a problem. Sure, the potions were a bit overpowered, but all we needed to do to fix that was remove most pots from dungeon_outs. Right now, it's set back those who can't devote an hour to playing in order to prepare for an event. Currently, we've gotten gear in fifteen minutes from Hell Tree and Floating Islands, but the time it takes to get that far north, along with obtaining pots and food, is around thirty minutes to an hour. If they're going to nerf Dungeon Chests, I'd rather they just remove the chests in dungeons entirely. Getting four red dye in a single chest inside a dungeon is extremely dumb.

    Edit: So far we've tested Floating Islands three times, and Hell Tree twice. Each time, the biggest worry was food and water. While that's not necessarily a bad thing, it causes a ton of problems with the overall gameplay loop. People certainly won't be able to really participate in another dungeon day after this, because you don't get enough in dungeons to even handle armor repairs.
  8. RoseFredricks Artist

    XP:
    45,261xp
    I wouldn't really have as much of a problem with this if the dungeon's legendary wasn't so bad. Because it is, the only incentive for doing the dungeon was the loot. This goes for several other dungeons that have awful legendaries (Wizard Tower, Lost Thieves Guild, Sunken Library, ). That's why the random legendary drop from these dungeons was a good thing, since you could get useful legendaries like the Binding Bow/Helmet, the Lone Sword, or the Earth Shaker from almost any dungeon. Having a set legendary is nice because you know what you are getting, but with so many of them being pretty useless, it feels pointless to do the dungeon, especially when it gives no loot chests.

    On the flipside, a dungeon like Devil's Respite which gives you two great legendaries (The Zombie Head and the Zombie Bow) doesn't need good loot chests because the legendaries make it worth doing on their own. This goes for some of the other dungeons like Anvalia Mines, the Elite Dungeons, Lorfaul Mines, Mount Therum, Mantle, Meteor Crater, etc.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that either the shity legendaries should be replaced or made actually worth while, or the dungeons they are in should have some other incentive for doing them, like military loot chests. Oh, and nerf the Fire Spire if you are going to keep the dungeon loot chests nerfed.
  9. Nalacion Emerald

    XP:
    33,893xp

    To build on this: if the dungeon isn't a major dungeon and can be soloed, I see no problem in giving a bit of military gear as opposed to a legendary. While many people I talk to know I'm in love with Lost Thieves Guild, the reason I loved it was because of the risk/reward. LTG is not the easiest dungeon to solo, especially given the weird spawn rate of pigmen/baby pigmen. I'd much rather have military chests (with iron) and zero pots/food/supplies if it meant that I risked my life and got out with either armor repairs or a decent set of armor. I couldn't farm it because I'd have to go down to Grimdale or west to Carnival to get food, arrows, bandages, and potions. It was a brilliant location that could easily kill you, and now the only thing you can really say is that it gives you a very niche legendary (even if you upped the number of uses with a cooldown between each use, it's still very niche).
  10. RoseFredricks Artist

    XP:
    45,261xp
    That's another point I forgot to address. Right now iron armor and high end military gear is gated by time and knowledge, not by skill. If you want iron armor, all you have to do is spend the time to walk in a straight line for a few thousand blocks, and the knowledge of where to loot, how much food to bring, and how much water to bring. Dungeon loot chests let you decrease the amount of time you had to spend by increasing the amount of skill you needed. Instead of spending 1.5 hours going to Hell's Tree and farming up armor there, you could spend 1 hour going to Flooded Tunnels, LTG, or some of the other mid level dungeons, but to make up for the time you saved, you had to have a certain amount of skill to get through the dungeon, whether it is parkour skill or zombie killing skill.

    Personally, I think being able to trade time for skill is a good thing because it rewards better players, and actually increases the amount of time you spend in the game by incentivizing spending time practicing instead of spending time walking in a straight line for 30 minutes. But it's quite possible that isn't an intended feature of MineZ and the developers would rather have you spending more time traveling through the world instead of going through dungeons, which is completely within their right, as this is their game.

    *Disclaimer: I know that the trading time for skill via dungeon loot isn't a perfect system, as there are some dungeons that don't require skill as much as they just require knowledge/experience. These are dungeons like Body Offload or Maze of the Tenth where you could easily get to the end if you knew exactly what to do, which made farming these places almost as safe as farming places like Hell's Tree and Agni Ignis, which threw the game balancing off. Also it's worth noting that as time has gone on a large amount of the player base has gotten more skillful, which makes dungeon progressively easier meaning that, again, the game starts to become unbalanced as doing dungeons is more advantageous than going to far North locations. Unfortunately there isn't any easy way to fix this, aside from removing the loot from dungeons, forcing people to farm places. That being said, I don't think removing loot from dungeons is the right solution for the problem. Maybe instead the difficulty of dungeons could be increased, or the dungeons could be periodically changed slightly to prevent people from memorizing the layouts of dungeons. For example, instead of having the same parkour path in Flood Tunnels, you could have the path change slightly each time you attempt it. (I know I use this as my example for everything, but that's because it's my go-to dungeon). Of course, this would be a lot more difficult to code, and with the developers focusing so much on Origins Part 2, this probably isn't a top priority. But honeslty, I think it should be. In my opinion, it's always better to fix what you already have before introducing new content.*
    kirbybubbles likes this.
  11. Talef Platinum

    XP:
    274,984xp
    I'm fine with the loot in dungeons as honorary instead of actually meaningful, but don't make it as varied as it is. Currently you can get military. some food and pots at Thannus but not civ, except that's not true if you run Devil's Respite as the supply chests spawn sugar/bandages/ointment/shears/etc. On top of making the town more rounded than most of the northern map, it also gives it more food mil and potions. These chests are in all minor dungeons I believe

    While the update mostly killed "God inventories" (10 splash III's 10 splash II's nonsense) it hasn't been hard to survive at all. If the majority of the dev's and community want 'loot' in dungeons to be next to non-existent that's cool but this isn't that, this just removes them as a reasonable place to get Iron armour (though they still have smite IV's and V's, just very rarely) taking upwards of 48 minutes at Devil's vs the time I got at Hell Tree (15 min) or Floating Islands (~6 minutes) for less risk. On the same note, finding the best smite sword in the game at places comparable to the iron rate in Sirus, but not places like Hell Tree and Floating Islands just feels weird to me.

    On the note of legendaries sucking, I think reverting it back would break more than it fixes, the community overwhelmingly wanted legendaries to be unique to dungeons so things like Devil's Respite legendary farming stopped being a thing, and so dungeons had something unique to themselves. I'd much rather see universally hated legendaries buffed (slightly at first, and more later if still needed) and all dungeons to have a pool of legendaries unique to that dungeon (make Devil's respite have a 50/50 chance of giving a zombie head or bow, same with Roseluck Crypt and the endeavor/ rubber shield) that way you never know what you're gonna get, and every dungeon will likely have something decent at the end.

    TL;DR Every dungeon is a mini Frostbain or Lazerville (the only two towns with civ + mil + pot + food in the north) now and I am confused. I can run Devil's Respite indefinitely now that I don't need to stop for bandages or food ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    MTrout likes this.
  12. RisingThumb Regular Member

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    96,839xp
    It's the difficulty of the dungeons. Not the loot. Loot is scaled well to to the area, but it fails to scale well with its challenge...
  13. FreeCookson Platinum

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    3,771xp
    Wizard is easily completable if you use a zombie bow. Not a challenge whatsoever with a bit of ingenuity. Plus you lose like 5 pots with the reward being 14 dungeon outs and a legendary if you use a zombie bow.
  14. lJuanGB Platinum

    XP:
    128,114xp
    Dungeons were never intended to serve as gearing points. The whole purpouse of the dungeon is to give the player an exciting and challenging experience that is new compared to the surviving aspect of the game. The reward for the completion are legendaries.

    MineZ is about looting towns. If you want to gear faster, then loot food in Portsmouth and sprint to Frostbain or Hell Tree. Thats is going to be risky but thats is the price you have to pay. If you are skilled and you can do this route you can get full iron quickly. If you are not that good, you can do the regular path, stoping in several towns.

    If you want a godly inventory, then you have to work for it. Sure, all iron is easy, but in order to have the best sword you have to fight a giant. In order to get the health III you have to find the few places that spawn them and loot them. If you want bread then work for it and craft it. MineZ is about travelling and gathering, not only a rush for iron and PvP at Hasa.

    If you want an over-godly inventory though, then you are going to have to go to the dungeons. Maybe the diificulty does not scale with the reward, but if you want the best of the best, you have to work twice for half the reward. If you think it's not worthy then it means you are not skilled enough, because if you truly were good at the game it would be no problem beating Flooded for the venom bow or maze for the heal sword. Those are really good items and the dungeons "not so difficult".

    TLDR; The legendary should be considered the dungeon reward, and any other loot a plus. MineZ is not only about dungeoning.
  15. ACrispyTortilla Retired Staff

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    170,292xp
    But heal sword sucks and venom bow doesn't even work... )':
    FelixFB likes this.
  16. Nalacion Emerald

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    33,893xp

    We're not asking for enough gear to fully outfit us with an entire inventory. We're asking for compensation for a very hard thing that drains resources. Currently, your planned route requires thirty minutes of travel, fifteen minutes of gearing, and then thirty minutes to an hour of additional travel depending on the dungeon you plan to do. All most people want in dungeons are armor repairs. Remove the pots and the food, and suddenly you can't use them as a gearing location.

    Edit: also, not to sound mean or anything, while I understand your point regarding "more work for half the reward", it's a little condescending to be told that "if you think it's not worth it you aren't skilled enough". Many of us have soloed several dungeons. Many of those dungeons are much harder than Flooded Tunnels. You telling us we aren't skilled because we think four healing ointments isn't worth potential death does not help your argument. If you really think dungeons shouldn't have gear except for the legendary, either make the legendaries worth it and remove the gear, or give us the ability to gain iron armor from dungeon chests.
  17. Talef Platinum

    XP:
    274,984xp
    [IMG]

    No but in all seriousness, if the legendaries are supposed to be the only 'reward', remove chests from dungeons entirely and make the legendaries functional and decent.
    lJuanGB, DJ_Pedro, Roquel and 4 others like this.
  18. LegendaryAlex Platinum

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    449,178xp
    Nuuu not my sheep :(
    lJuanGB likes this.
  19. lJuanGB Platinum

    XP:
    128,114xp
    Damn... :lmao: Ok maybe I was a bit harsh about "not skilled enough" but you get the point.

    I don't think chests should be removed all together because now they are designed to "cover" the costs from doing the dungeon, so giving some food and pots is ok. Maybe the legendaries should be a little bit better and definitely all of them should work.

    PD: I'm talking about this as a player, so don't mistake my opinion with the point of view of the minez team.
    FelixFB likes this.
  20. Talef Platinum

    XP:
    274,984xp
    cool, then chests should only contain consumables that the player theoretically could lose during the dungeon, like healing ointment and shears.

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