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Discussion Anni Feedback & Enchanter Discussion

Discussion in 'Annihilation' started by endermanking333, Mar 3, 2022.

Discussion - Anni Feedback & Enchanter Discussion
  1. endermanking333 Silver

    I know I'm late to the party since the feedback post was made on the 24th: https://shotbow.net/forum/threads/annihilation-feedback-thread.414583/ — So I thought it was best to just create a new post. Not all of these ideas are 100% unique since I'm building on past suggestions, but there are a few things I want to add. The discussion about Enchanter is at the bottom, and the rest of the suggestions are about general anni stuff.

    1. Small anni (8v8 or less)
    -> Good for when server is dead, but even less players = less people at base, making early rushes/invis more powerful; you could argue people should just be team players, but even in full games people still don't want to def; if it could be balanced, this idea would be good

    2. More kits, or more kit changes
    -> I don't get the "add more kits" part of this idea, since there are already so many kits whose full potential has yet to be realized; more kit changes could change the meta, so maybe add periodic balance changes

    3. Anni is terribly difficult to learn, make an interactive tutorial for new players
    -> This is a very complicated idea, but if the server is trying to revive anni, it'd be helpful for there to be a more up-to-date anni guide for new players; I have some ideas for this and how it can be implemented, but I'll save it for a different post

    4. Make XP mean something
    -> How about do a custom 1 sentence saying or quip when someone hovers over your name in game; custom nexus kill animations/sounds/chat message

    5. Map balance changes
    -> More discussion needs to be had about areas where our current maps are unbalanced, overpowered, or just not fun to play; one example I can think of: Cherokee's nexus has a literal hole to the void for swap + scp, making normal rushing unnecessarily difficult

    6. Unbalanced classes no one talks about
    -> Again, I see almost no one talking about these kits that are broken and should be altered——except for enchanter, which has a different issue; also, these kits, in my opinion, have a role in creating an unhealthy, camping-based, passive meta:

    Bard - the weakness III & slowness II are overpowered for their cost (nothing) & they are mandatory at mid p3;
    Builder - the ability to grief mines & mid is the main issue that has a simple fix -> you can't place delaying blocks near ores;
    Enchanter - of course, this kit is necessary for gearing, but this class also creates an unhealthy meta and is maybe even responsible for our current meta:

    Enchanter inflates the amount of good gear in games, meaning when people die, they are put at an immediate disadvantage because it will be way more difficult for them to keep up and re-gear, leading to weak players resorting to "other" means of defense

    On average, the first 20 mins of the game are spent using this class to prepare for phase 3 diamonds — these first 20 minutes are the most important because its the only time when people can gear for mid when diamonds haven't already spawned, getting swords, bows, and armor. However, once teams get diamonds, their iron gear becomes less powerful

    Here is the key to my argument: once a team get diamonds, if other people die and lose their good gear, gearing again from zero is basically pointless because the teams that get diamond first have an immediate and lasting advantage. Assuming your team doesn't have mid or dia, spending another 20 minutes to gear puts the game to p5, when dia people already have gaps and super op gear.

    I hope my train of logic makes sense, and in short: enchanter forces a meta where people to spend the first 20 mins to focus solely on good gear because their biggest concern is mid and securing diamonds; however, the strength of diamonds completely outshines iron and means people who die with their gear and who can't get diamonds essentially have no chance during late-game. As a result, they typically resort to void traps or massive stalling when people actually do rush.

    Solution? No idea, because enchanter is very important for just gearing in general. This entire issue has multiple factors, and enchanter is just one of them, but people should just be aware of this.
    Sens, PixelatedCalvin, Hingey and 3 others like this.

  2. IFinessedYou Emerald

    Swap void needs a change or something bro why are we getting rid of void scp when swap thor takes 0 skill compared to scp Im not saying that void scp is good im just saying you actually need to aim not just click onto someone and all their loot that they have been gearing for goes to waste.
  3. MrJuiceIce Regular Member

    Reduce the xp you get from oresby just a little
  4. SmallSpoon Marketing Team

    Bard is overall overpowered no matter what. Bard effects should only impact 5 players at a time, both positive and negative effects. Regen 1 pots are useless when a portable regen bard is available all the time to the entire team.

    Tinker could use a nerf as well but something simple like 1 xp level to remove a level 1 enchant. so removing a level 4 enchant (sharp/eff 4) would cost 4 levels. Something small to make gearing take a little more time to give other players who do not know the meta to get prepared.
  5. Cupu Platinum

    There are times with enchanter I've used 6 levels and got sharp 3, knock 2, etc.
    I'd say decrease the xp you get just a little bit, while also decreasing the chance of random upgrades EARLY in the game. I think that normal enchanter isn't used late in the game for the exact reasons you mentioned, I think to counteract this would be at a certain point in the game, the items you enchant become more powerful as your nexus health decreases. I think that would also keep players using enchanter late in the games.

    I know no one has said this, but I think all classes should be able to be used AND be effective no matter what point of the game your in.
  6. shajunghoon Silver

    This last sentence is incorrect, it is impossible to make all classes effective at all times, this is bad game balancing. The proper goal would be to reach a game state where every class can be used in their own respective scenarios.

    Also there are certain things like bard, enc that are overpowered but they are healthy for the game. Bard is certainly overpowered but it's a class that makes anni fun. No one wants to sit there for 5 min and wait to heal back up to full health before every fight. Enc allows people to gear in a relatively short amount of time and actually pvp people.

    Counter argument to ender's key point: If the other team has dias, it does not take 20 min to gear back up to fight again, and if enc is nerfed wouldn't it just take longer to regear? currently it is possible to regear S3P3 in 5-6 min. this gives an individual/team a very good chance of fighting against dia members. In most scenarios, you can regear in a couple min and by the time u head to mid again, the other team has majority of its members enchanting in base and you can take mid control maybe kill 1-2 dias and get a couple more sets to def their rush. If enc was nerfed, then it makes it harder to fight against dias since you will have lower sharp/prot. especially if they have regen bard or basic pots, you will be just tickling them.
  7. Cupu Platinum


    In a perfect world these bard/enchanter nerfs would go hand in hand with a lotta other balances, but of course having the enchanter nerf without any variable to offset it would terrible for teams tryna get back in, but I also don't like seeing multiple Sharp 5/4s throughout the match. I remember when those used to be considered "god swords" because of they're rarity and strength. Now, everybody has/can get those enchants multiple times a game.

    I get some classes like miner have almost literally no use past P3, unless your team needs to re-gear, but even then, at that point you'd use enchanter. A revision to my thought would probably be that all PVP classes should be viable throughout the game, or classes that have a PVP element to them.
    Hingey likes this.
  8. Hingey Platinum

    Enchanter was in a good spot pre 1.9. After the update xp values of ores were doubled and the enchanting tables now showed you what your enchants are going to be. To make matters worse the enchantment seeds were the same each time either a sharp 4 or power 4 at the start of the match. Seeds are random now but it hasn't done enough. Enchanting a lvl 30 sword or bow used to come with high risk and high reward, its too easy to cycle enchants and get exactly what you want. The game was better when you got to wield the only god sword or bow in the game and teams couldn't snowball god gear like you can now.

    At least remove the ability to see what your enchants are going to be, if not both revert the xp values to pre 1.9 and remove seeing enchants.
    Jarool and Cupu like this.
  9. Tobi472 Platinum


    I mean in the past ppl didnt know that anvils existed. I doubt that enchanter is the cause of god swords bcs rn its easier to get a sharp 4 sword by combining swords than going for the lvl 30. Also in the past enchanter scaled on lvl meaning u could farm lvl 60 with eases and on andorra lvls over 100 were nothing too special.
    This whole thread is very misleading. What is the point of this? At the start its about things we already said on the feedback thread and than all is beeing blamed on enchanter?
    Like I said ppl have anvils. ppl can lvl 1 enchant. Is enchanter needed for that? No. Will the removal of enchanter remove sharp 3/4 swords from the game. No way.
    So what are we even talking about here. We have some semi serious issues with maps and classes. Btw you can vote to not play unbalnced maps in the voting so this only up to the playerbase themselves!
    About the classes you got a point but we have far more weak or strong classes to speak about.
    And the passive gameplay you are talking about doesnt exist. Its more like ppl waiting, wasting time and beeing hella unefficient in what they are doing.
    lunapino likes this.
  10. Cupu Platinum

    While I understand your points about other issues in the game, such as balancing and map selection, I don't think we need to throw away a discussion because there are other issues. I think that feedback in all areas is helpful for game/server growth and will eventually lead us to the desired outcomes.

    Back to the enchantment table point, if I remember correctly, you had to look up what the symbols meant on the enchant table to be able to guess which enchant you were going to get. The thread was never about removing "God" or "OP" weapons, but at least making them less prevalent in the game so they retain they're "God" or "Op" status.

    Since everyone has access to these weapons, they become an necessity to be able to compete. And if you die once, that sets you back another good 5-10 mins trying to re-gear.

    With less of these in the game, less people would leave in progress/late games because they won't be getting 2 shotted by an iron sword in P2 as well as teams not being clearly outmatched by "stacked" teams.
  11. Tobi472 Platinum

    The enchanting system was so broken. You could farm lvls easier and the first enchants were the same all the time. meaning your sword first enchant will always be sharpness 4 and knockback 2. Fortune wasnt working and the chance to get a fast pich with a blind enchant was rather high. even for bow nothing much can go wrong.
  12. Cupu Platinum

    I honestly didn't remember them being the same enchants lol, I think it must've been PTSD from all the Smite Vs I use to get. I would say recently however it's felt I've been seeing the same enchants pop up super frequently. I definitely notice there being same enchants at the table when I got to start usually. I do remember fortune not working though.

    Are enchants at the table RNG right now? Because I tend to see some of the same enchants paired together when going to enchant. (Ex Lvl 5 = Unbreak 1, Lvl 14 = bane 2, level 30 fire aspect 2, this has been my starting selection of sword enchants at the big enchant table a couple of times recently)

    I think a reintroduction of the symbols instead of the names would be a good start, but I wouldn't wanna see it implemented in any normal capacity until we could see how it'd work in a Sandbox.

    Without using the symbols as a game wide enchant nerf, I think the enchanter should get a little less XP per action, as well as less of a likelihood of enchantment upgrades at higher levels. With that being said though, it would be very important to find the right balance to not make the class obsolete.
  13. Tobi472 Platinum

    I feel like your not listening. First enchants where a thing till 2018. Even without seeing your enchant stone swords have a very high chance to get sharpness. Anvils are a thing and you dont need to be an enchanter to use them
  14. Cupu Platinum

    I can say something like "I like apples" and someone will go "Oh so you hate Oranges then." In this case, "Enchanter should be nerfed" to "Oh so anvils aren't problem?/Sharpness on Stone swords/not listening"

    Not a shock that you can achieve the same things in the game through different means.

    Like I've stated BEFORE in this thread, RANDOM ENCHANTS AT THE TABLE, as well as nonreadable enchants, would add an element of RNG back to enchanting weapons, and add the sense of Risk/Reward back to the beginning of the game that has been somewhat lost other than going for mid blocks. This entire thread is focused on how enchanter has created an unhealthy meta by flooding the game with god swords. No ones arguing that anvils are in the game. By nerfing enchanter, you decrease the rate at which these swords are put into the game, because yes, while you can make a ton of swords and use an anvil, the majority of players will not be doing that.

    I hope I am making sense.
  15. Ringowhs Regular Member

    I believe this gap is gear caused by enchanter is exactly what is driving the rise of Swapper and Scorpio
    Enchanter is stupidly powerful that anyone asking what to buy as their first class I always answer enchanter. Good gear beats any class

    You start off from digging iron in P1. Gets killed by a scout. So you are already late in getting good gear
    Then if you die with the good gear during P3. You are basically screwed. And if the whole team failed to secure diamonds/boss. The whole team is screwed.
    So in this situation, how are you going to play? Regear? Well by the time you get everything, your team is dead. So much fun having 4-5 full diamonds with gaps and sharp 4s rushing towards your 4 leather and probably 3 iron teammates
    You can /al but this can get really frustrating
    Swappers and Scorpios "balance" the gap by voiding all of these diamond rushers. You can call it unfair or whatever. But with a gear gap this huge, what are you going to do?
    Hingey likes this.
  16. syoyukundesu Regular Member

  17. GiveLifeB2Music Platinum


    I will ask my enemy in a friendly tone may u share some diamonds
    so i can free u soul out ù w ú

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