1. Want to get our most recent announcements - and XP codes - in your email?

    Sign up for our mailing list!

Discussion Well since every thread got closed..

Discussion in 'Annihilation' started by Lord_Thruin, Dec 19, 2017.

Discussion - Well since every thread got closed..
  1. Lord_Thruin Regular Member

    XP:
    5,396xp
    Im in the iron mines collecting iron to make armor for my team as when i play the miner class i make equipment for the whole team as our nexus drops 25 health. I run to the nexus full speed inv full of ores as people still sit in spawn breaking melons and hiding furnaces I get to the nexus killing the leather armored foe armored with nothing but a gold pick. I say def to no avail as the words dont come out it seems the words been censored. In a game full of resources people should be seen as such defensive resources utility resources and offense resources. If my defense message could have sparked interest in one of the people in spawn just one it would have saved maybe 10-15 nexus health. But through shitty methods they decide to push the team game theory but the thing is the only real way to farm xp is to play offense. Why do you have everyone playing offense? The only way to progress in the server is by playing it. When I play defense I average around 150-250 xp on a good game. Now on a good offense game i can break alot more. I understand the incentive for wanting people to play offensive roles making games shorter so dont ruin it with censoring. If you want people to play defense shotbow then allow more xp for defense player dont censor your playerbase more people dont enjoy that honestly. It seems like someone got offended at someone saying def instead of realizing it can make the difference in players who play with music. I could afk a match and get half the xp i get from defending. Don't push one rhetoric while the other one gets all the benefit. If its a true team game there would be balance between defensive and offensive roles gaining xp not just the latter.

  2. hiddenbun Retired Staff

    XP:
    569xp
  3. GuigaWei Platinum

    XP:
    578,041xp
    I believe a problem with defending in Annihilation is that many people don't do it right. As in, the idea behind defending held by the community and staff team is flawed. The expectation set by others is that you pick defensive classes in order to defend the most efficiently. This saves the maximum amount of nexus health. This idea is evidently supported by the staff because of their increase of XP you get for winning a match with more nexus health. This, however, is a flawed system and here's why.

    The only way to truly ensure that you get the maximum reward from defending is to defend using a sudo-offensive class with potential to defend. Classes that grant you advantages later on in the match in order for you to switch to offense at a moments notice. Keeping your nexus perfect through four phases is fine and all, but in P5 the only way to guarantee you take as little damage as possible is by using your strength offensively to knock another nexus down to 5, most preferably the weakest team. Therefore, by attempting to make the game more defensive, the staff actually did the opposite. Soon, people will realize that it is more efficient to use classes like Robin Hood and Berserker in defense so they can farm themselves, because in reality it is the most efficient way to play Annihilation as a defender now. A lot of people care about xp and rank points, therefore classes like Immobilizer and Mercenary just aren't efficient in giving you the most out of your games.

    That's not to mention that winning games comes down more to hitting other nexuses. If you are good at offense, Handyman is a viable pickup, or if the enemy has defense, pick up an Assassin. Working down any team closer to 5 nexus points is the greatest help to your team's nexus health and helps to solidify a lead. Remember: If your team is winning, the greatest issue you will face is the nexus bleed in Phase 5. The bleed only benefits the other teams by creating vulnerabilities in the winning team's health. By offensively rushing, you can turn the game in your favor by focusing the leading team, or keep a lead by focusing the worst team down to 5. Defense used to be more important since there is three teams other than your own and damaging them does little, but now Offense is more important since reducing ONE team down to 5 can save yourself dozens of nexus points that defending just can't.

    That being said, the censorship of defend in chat would be completely unnecessary in an offensive meta. So many new ways to use offense against your enemy have been introduced while defense becomes a mere secondary to offense in the sense that defense is now used to set up your offense. With all of these new play-styles introduced to Annihilation, most of them offensive, there comes an expectation that a majority of users will be away from base using these new strategies. Alchemist being viable means more people are out getting ingredients. The shop buff means gold is more valuable, and can be farmed all game after getting just 3 iron to get completely geared. And of course, mid still exists.

    Telling your team to defend, however, can spark an interest in someone to defend, because it may make them consider that there is nobody at base defending. Everyone always assumes that someone is near the nexus in Annihilation. But typically people don't camp the nexus unless there is a sense of urgency. Think "completing your homework or studying" kind of urgency, whenever its your last chance to do so before your grade falls. Except this time, you have no idea if there is a defender down in the nexus at all. It can be safe to assume that if the attacker dies at some point, then there is in fact a defender, when there isn't. Letting your team know that the nexus is in need of a defender becomes necessary in order to prevent a loss of the game.

    Real quick, I'd like to refute the main criticism or "challenge" towards the defend statement, which is always "why don't you go down and defend yourself". Like I said above, defending is now second-priority since offense has been considerably more efficient in terms of winning and Shotbow XP, which is the true goal of any game. Many people already have goals in mind in order to achieve the victory, whether it be to collect diamonds, or brew potions. However, many people do not have strict goals and are floating around helping the team in any area they can. Again, if the nexus is near full, they may not think that any defense help is needed, so they go somewhere like mid. Hearing "defend" from their team may be a signal for them to pull out of their current occupation and join their teammates at base.

    Finally, let me relay the difference between "inc" and "def" in terms of psychology. Incoming has a short term meaning that only really affects the thinking of people nearby their base. While it isn't censored, it does not compel people at mid or farther to come back and join the defense. It only signals that one attack is coming, and implies that someone sees it happening. This is dangerous however, because anyone hearing it can easily assume that since the attack has been found, there will be a defender. In many cases the opposite is true, since anyone on the map can spot a rush and easily be outrun back to base. Defend however, signals that there isn't a valid defender in the radius of the nexus and that it is vulnerable to attack. Rather than pointing to a known target and sending a signal that everything is under control, Defend holds meaning that points to the unknown, that someone might be on their way to deal massive damage. This idea is much more scary and forces teammates into action far more often than a simple "incoming". Incoming is supposed to be a call for all defenders to get ready, while Defend is supposed to be a call for all teammates to become defenders. Having the phrase "incoming" handle both roles makes no sense logically since the wrong signals can be sent, and cause teams to suffer from the worst of it.

    Take the time to think that over objectively. I hope that any staff watching will reconsider their censorship of the "defend" phrase because of the necessity of its use in-game and the disruption of teamwork after its removal. While I've been very carefully wording this entire essay, I feel like I need to make it clear: Anyone can get offended at almost anything on the Internet, and "defend" is no exception to the rule. It can be frustrating that after your nexus is damaged over and over that people continue bombarding each other with this phrase, but it isn't the fault of the word for teams failing at defending. It is the players that failed themselves to protect the nexus, and chose to ignore the warning of the nexus being open to attackers. You can't protect every player from taking offense in some way while playing Shotbow. It is more beneficial to the server for any malicious use of "defend" on teammates to be treated case by case in order to protect the vast majority of people with good intentions.

    No I will not leave a TL;DR because all of my points need to be read in context with the evidence. Take it paragraph by paragraph, you'll be fine.
  4. Lord_Thruin Regular Member

    XP:
    5,396xp
    Like why does he have only 4k xp omg noob! Im a defense player bud this is my burden. And Champion_Guiga you made some beautiful points thanks for the insight.
  5. Murgatron Retired Staff

    XP:
    970,785xp
    Depending on the map defending can actually be very rewarding XP wise! Consider enemy teleports on Castles - if you are a defender with a Sharpness 5 sword you'll be raking it in!

    How would you suggest that we reward players who defend without incentivising players to just SBXP AFK farm at a nexus? I'm keen to hear of any ideas and mechanics you have for this.

    We already try to share the reward of SBXP if a teammate mines a nexus, maybe we could tweak it to be more or even the same amount of XP.

    Look forward to your reply :)
  6. hiddenbun Retired Staff

    XP:
    569xp
    awesome, but your example is very situational and hardly ever seen in-game, especially today where castles is rarely picked. how about uncensoring the word "defend" and "def" in-chat? that seems like a great way to incentivize players to defend. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  7. Lord_Thruin Regular Member

    XP:
    5,396xp
    How would camping a teleporter benefit your team when no one is on the nexus. Alot of classes have the capability to slip by making you have to rush from your post at the teleporter all the way to your nexus to defend. True defense is popping a squat over that nexus which is dreadful for xp. Give us an incentive to play mother goose for it is already a bore to play it has little progression.
    Diamond_Hunter49, Koshkasa and _Swipe like this.
  8. Lord_Thruin Regular Member

    XP:
    5,396xp
    Now as how to give us incentive there are a few options and i bet there are some i cant come up with. Increase the amount of xp for enemy kills by your nexus or for every tick of nexus bleed grant a tiny amount xp for standing near the nexus as it would start later in the game preventing people from afk farming it and also have people at the nexus at an important time of the game.
    Diamond_Hunter49, _Av0 and _Swipe like this.
  9. GuigaWei Platinum

    XP:
    578,041xp
    This is a situation where dropping back and defending is important to the team, and where having the "defend" command option available would be very useful. Remember what I said about incoming, it isn't the correct term to use for the situation of having your nexus exposed to attackers, because you're looking for more defenders, not for defenders to be more alert.

    The Teleport rush argument doesn't satisfy the requirement for major consideration since it is a marginal case compared to the vast majority of rushes. Raking in the xp and letting enemies torch your nexus isn't the correct response either. It is much better to focus your efforts on destroying the teleport rather than let enemies attack the nexus, since the point I was trying to make was in the realm of winning the game with the most health. You are putting on an offensive in order to defend your nexus in this situation, which once again obeys the rule of not using defensive classes in defensive situations because it isn't efficient.

    The current system of nexus bleed and extra SBXP for winning with more health may create an offensive strategy for gaining the most reward, but it also caps game lengths to an extent. It also stops players from AFK farming in the way you suggested, and for the most part that aspect has been fixed. Just execute your threats of revoking stats to repeat offenders in order to compel the community to behave and play the game the correct way. I know that's not the answer you want to hear, but it would be the safest way to deal with this problem without risking a major change that could hurt the game's health.

    If you want defenders to get more xp and incentivise defending, then simply increase the multiplier for xp while defending. It doesn't impact gameplay, and since SB isn't pay to win, it doesn't grant any unfair advantage to defensive players over offensive players, because in the end it is a choice to defend or not. Give the players a choice to stay at base, or pursue their opportunities elsewhere.

    I wouldn't recommend this over my previous suggestion, since the defender in question wouldn't gain this xp from their own actions, but rather from a teammate. Having +1 XP is fine for this, increasing it would give provide even more incentive to go offensive and try to bring home some XP in a meta where offense is already dominating.

    You can go with any idea you think is best, but in my opinion balancing the game to reward players the same for every important position on the team is a priority. We want players that are contributing to get their fair share of xp, not the ones that are messing around with Scout all day. Defense is an important position, even if it is taking a back-seat to offense right now, and deserves some extra reward and incentive for performing good actions.

    I'm gonna repeat that the lack of using "defend" has impact on the number of defenders right now, as explained in my long essay previously, and for people to be aware of when the right time is to defend, the first step should be the replacement of "defend" back into the game. From there, tweaking can be made for rewards.
  10. dackknight09 Obsidian

    XP:
    105,709xp

    As much as your posts were huge. I feel like you pretty much said everything that had to be said. I couldn't have written it better myself. I agree with your statements and honestly you were so on point, I feel like you should have a talk with Galap and Murgatron. This thread is getting somewhere for sure.

    I'd also like to add that people that do defend often decide to leave the nexus since nothing comes their way for a long period of time. At the end of the day you play for fun and sitting in your nexus alone for over 30 minutes isn't always the most fun thing to do. Giving a higher reward might make people decide to actually keep doing this though.
  11. KounterattacK Gold

    XP:
    139,335xp
    "Ok, I think this thread has gone off the rails enough." :D Anyways, ya, I agree with this thread, however, I will say that defending is easier. Sure, its not worth it to defend (XP wise) right now, but I fear that it might get OVER buffed. I dont want to see that, because then no one will ever want to leave the base. All in all, ya, I agree with buffs for defenders, but dont go overboard with it please.
  12. Mysterious_Seven Platinum

    XP:
    227,414xp
    Make a video response?
  13. LegendaryAlex Platinum

    XP:
    449,178xp
    There we go, spitting the freaking the truth.
    Avqlon and _Swipe like this.
  14. Lord_Thruin Regular Member

    XP:
    5,396xp
    I just dont see the reason for the sudden push for making a team based game when its been and continues to be rather one sided benefitting those who attack xp progression wise I don't care for the strength of defending as they are rather strong they dont need a buff but the progression itself for playing defense is terrible it isnt worth defending the nexus even if you do win because winning is situational. You wont win every game. I myself cannot stop a rush of 6 people thats where shot-calling comes in. Defending is easier as a team then attacking as a team but most of the time i find myself alone on the nexus wondering why im wasting my time then proceeding to switch to offense. There's little satisfaction for playing defense.
  15. Lord_Thruin Regular Member

    XP:
    5,396xp
    Basically what i'm trying to sum up in this thread. I believe that instead of vocalizing the issue of lack of defense or "teamwork" through a passive aggressive word censorship fix the actual issue through giving us incentive to defend.
    Hingey, LegendaryAlex and _Swipe like this.
  16. Rovex Silver

    XP:
    494,590xp
    i don't play anymore but i kind of find it hilarious in a sad way that they blocked the word def. i bet some guy got annoyed with it, blocked it, then made some excuse as to why.

    anyways, i wonder what word they'll block next. gg? maybe they should block the team names, so people can't tell people to join certain teams. heck, maybe they should ban chat entirely
  17. EnderSerpent4 Regular Member

    XP:
    77,441xp
    you know how i get around the censorship of def?
    I just type "Defend the Nexus" at the beginning of phase 2 and everytime the nexus gets attacked i just press t and up arrow
    heheheh
    Hingey likes this.
  18. LegendaryAlex Platinum

    XP:
    449,178xp
    I type too much in chat so that wouldn't work for me :lmao:
  19. Hingey Platinum

    XP:
    863,715xp
    Alright that is enough of the lies. My answer to this post suffices all of your questions. Even though this thread is marked discussion and there was no question to be answered in the first place. Screw all of you, Locking thread.:stuck_out_tongue:

    -Hingey
  20. Litnetti Emerald

    XP:
    129,775xp
    "Not being able to say 'def' or 'defend' was meant to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for defending"

Share This Page